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Ninth meeting of the Mobility Working Group

Last Updated:

Overview

  • Date and time: March 27, 2025 (2025) (Thursday) 13:30 to 15:30
  • Location: online
  • Business
    1. Opening
    2. Business
      1. Direction of Mobility Roadmap 2025 (Draft)
        • Status of initiatives and future initiatives
        • Mobility Roadmap 2025 Outline (Draft)
        • Exchange of views
      2. Other
        • About the future schedule
    3. Closing

Material

Minutes

Director, Asayama: The 9th meeting of the "9th Mobility Working Group" will be held now as the scheduled time has passed. Thank you for attending the working group today despite your busy schedule. My name is Asayama from the secretariat and I will be the moderator today. Nice to meet you. I would like to hear greetings from Chief Mori for the opening of the working group. Nice to meet you, Chief Mori.

Mori Chief: Thank you for coming out of your busy schedule. The 9th Mobility Working Group will be held. In the discussions so far, we have discussed autonomous driving in urban areas, so-called robot taxis, which is expected to start around fiscal 2027, and autonomous driving in rural areas, which is said to be a traffic vacuum zone, and we have discussed efforts to secure traffic in the traffic vacuum zone at a certain level by integrating efforts across organizations. Today, we will further deepen the content and also introduce what kind of measures will be taken by the members from next fiscal year. The administrative staff will propose an outline draft of the "Mobility Roadmap 2025." As there is not much time left until the realization of robot taxis in 2027, we would like to discuss mainly how you can collaborate and cooperate in your fields of expertise beyond the framework. Thank you. Then, the secretariat will proceed with the proceedings.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. Today's meeting will be held online. Members are requested to keep their cameras on at all times during the meeting, and speakers are requested to unmute their microphones before speaking. When other people are speaking, please mute their microphones. Spectators are requested to turn off their cameras and microphones.

Next, I would like to check the materials. As stated in the agenda that I sent to you in advance, the agenda, Materials 1 to 4, and the list of attendees. If there is any shortage, please contact the chat function of Teams or the secretariat by email, etc. Regarding the introduction of today's attendees, due to time constraints, I would like to hand out the list of attendees at hand, if you don't mind. Now, let's move on to the agenda.

First, regarding the status of implementation of measures by the relevant ministries and agencies, I would like to hear explanations from the relevant ministries and agencies about the status of implementation to date and the policies for the next fiscal year and beyond. After that, I will explain the draft outline of the mobility roadmap. Please explain within four minutes for each of the relevant ministries and agencies. As for the future measures by the relevant ministries and agencies, I believe there are some parts that have not yet been reflected in the intensive implementation of measures due to the early timing of the harvest. When the relevant ministries and agencies explain, I would like to hear an explanation from the perspective of whether the measures cannot be brought forward. Then, Mr. Director-General Digital Agency, please explain.

Murakami Director-General: Handout 2. Digital Agency We ask you to do homework on 5 items. I will explain each of them.
On the fourth page of the slide, I would like to discuss how to estimate demands. Since last year, this working group has been discussing how to estimate potential demands and how to realize not only existing demands but also invisible demands when considering transportation trading companies. This time, we have discussed how to estimate demands through repeated trial and error and summarized it in a manual. In the future, we hope to spread demand surveys using the procedures in this manual through support measures by issue Gold and others for regional revitalization.
In this survey, we think that the main target will be children and the elderly who do not have means of transportation. First, we take a questionnaire about what kind of feelings they have for the community. Since there are some parts that cannot be seen only by the questionnaire, we find out candidates for demands that we want them to deepen by repeating deep interviews. In fact, we conducted a demonstration in which we asked about five local governments in the issue Gold Group for Regional Revitalization to create a logic tree. As shown on the right, we created a logic tree that covers not only mobility supply-side policies but also menus for the elderly and after-school education menus. As a result, what had been discussed vertically and separately within the city hall has been shared.
In Step 2, based on the information obtained from the in-depth interviews and questionnaires, the Social Welfare Department, the Board of Education, and the department in charge of transportation policy created a single logic tree and shared a picture of the supply and demand that transportation trading companies should connect in a way that confirms the mutual relationship between each other's measures. The work in Steps 1 and 2 has a back-and-forth aspect and is expressed by a two way arrow, but it has become clear that this can be realized. Then, in Step 3, when we see the demand that the town wants to create with effort, we objectively conducted a demand survey and held workshops, etc. We have come to see the content of the supply and demand cycle that we want to create. We will explain in detail later, but we would like to make a manual and deliver such know-how as common know-how for transportation trading companies.

Next, we will consider how to support financing. For local governments, it is necessary to consider procurement reforms such as joint use and joint procurement so that digital public goods with low-cost basic MaaS functions can be spread to remote islands instead of expensive MaaS such as reservation and dispatch management systems. In addition, there are measures to strengthen local government revenues such as Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications's digital special bonds and flexible utilization of the corporate version of the Benefit-Your-Locality Hometown Tax. As a result, in Sakaimachi and other areas where such utilization is advancing, verification test has been built with a margin.

Please refer to page 6. As for the operator, we have not had sufficient discussions with the relevant ministries and agencies, so please excuse us for using this as a hypothesis for discussion. At present, I have the impression that there are many cases in which the supply and demand management of mobility services using autonomous driving technology, the reservation and dispatch management, the operation management, and the vehicle ownership are integrated into a single company. We believe that it is necessary to categorize business risks according to their nature. Specifically, supply-and-demand management involving reserved vehicle allocation and settlement involves an extremely high level of risk to local communities. It is an area that is familiar to support local revitalization, such as whether customers will move as expected and whether drivers will cooperate in the case of manned operation. It is important whether they cooperate to realize potential demand or whether they cooperate to use a mechanism to efficiently match supply and demand. On the other hand, in the area of vehicle ownership and maintenance, the field is troubled by the high cost of vehicles and the high failure rate of small buses. In addition, there is a shortage of maintenance personnel and other technology-related risks. And finally, in the area of operation management, the challenge is whether the vehicle will run as intended and whether it can run without causing an accident. This is related to the utilization and acquisition of AI in the future, but I don't think it will be necessary to develop an operation management system for each area separately. In other words, this is where the biggest economies of scale lie, and it could be a lucrative industry. At that time, if we discuss the local community risk and the technical risk of vehicles, it is not possible to obtain private financing, so it is OK for one company to make management decisions for these three layers, but I think it is necessary to analyze the risks of these three layers separately and think about government support measures. I would like to ask the members to share their thoughts on this point.

On page 7, we propose the creation of a mechanism for leasing and renting vehicles in order to unbundle the risk of vehicle failure rates and maintenance personnel from the world of operation management. At Digital Agency, mainly in the field of service robots, we are accumulating use cases when running multiple robots autonomously in a small space and uncovering trouble cases. For the next fiscal year, I would like to think together with the relevant ministries and agencies about what rules to follow and what technical standards to make. That's all.

Director, Asayama: . Next, Mr. Cabinet Office, please explain.

Director Umehara (Cabinet Office Office of Science, Technology and Innovation Promotion): I will explain from page 9. There are four related measures. Cabinet Office has a R & D program called SIP, and is conducting R & D from basic research to social implementation together with private companies and university officials. Among them, we are promoting a project to build a smart mobility platform, and are currently developing it with Member Ishida as PD and Member Koshizuka as a participant. I will explain the four specific policies.

First, it is page 11. It is the formulation of guidelines for the introduction of autonomous driving services, etc. This project aims to formulate guidelines for redesigning regional transportation, and we would like to create guidelines in cooperation with local governments in order to advance efforts to address regional mobility issues. This fiscal year, we are collecting examples and creating a structure proposal. In particular, we are developing indicators and tools that can evaluate the accessibility of public transportation and making them available to the public on a limited basis. We plan to formulate a draft of these guidelines by the end of next fiscal year. From fiscal 2026, we will gradually cooperate with related ministries, agencies and organizations, and strive to improve the quality of the guidelines and expand the user base based on on-site demonstrations and discussions.

Next, page 12. It is about the cost reduction of key technologies. In this project, we are developing a lidar system related to obstacle detection that can be used for autonomous driving. It is a technology to measure the distance and direction from the time when a laser is irradiated and bounces back. We are developing three technologies to address technical issues such as the large number of components that make up a laser and the difficulty of miniaturization. They are a technology that can irradiate and receive pinpoint radar, a technology that irradiates a laser from various angles, and an irradiation technology for object recognition. Since the specifications have been decided this fiscal year, we plan to proceed with trial manufacturing and design based on these specifications from next fiscal year. For fiscal 2026 and beyond, we will advance measures in cooperation with related ministries and agencies. We plan to specify target specifications and conduct a demand survey while aiming for commercialization.

Next, page 13. Study of data integration and mutual utilization infrastructure. We are building the Japan Mobility Data Space (JMDS), which is useful for creating and redesigning mobility services using data. This fiscal year, we are developing an integrated data catalog service that enables data searching and a digital sandbox that enables simulations in cyberspace. We are testing the provision of some functions. From the next fiscal year, we will promote cooperation with local governments and conduct verification and evaluation while reflecting user opinions. From fiscal 2026, we will build a system that can continuously operate JMDS, improve quality while incorporating users and reflecting user opinions, and grasp needs.

Finally, on page 14, I would like to talk about human resource development. Among mobility services, the re-design and sustainable operation of regional transportation is an important theme, and we are creating a program to develop specialized human resources and communities. This fiscal year, we are conducting data-based discussions among related parties, practicing confidence-building and sharing know-how within the organization. From the next fiscal year, we will create a draft of a human resource development program, reflect it in R & D through holding national conferences and demonstrations, acquire users, and create a development program. That is all from Cabinet Office. I would like to continue to promote R & D in cooperation with related ministries and agencies, and I appreciate your support.

Director, Asayama: . Next, I would like to ask you to start with National Police Agency.

Director Nagai (Director, National Police Agency Director-General's Secretariat): I will explain from page 16 of . Regarding the study and establishment of signal information provision technology, from fiscal 2026 to fiscal 2027, under the framework of SIP Phase 3, we are planning a comprehensive verification test that utilizes signal information through various forms of mobility. This is a verification test that provides signal information to various traffic participants other than self-driving systems using a V2N method that utilizes the cloud and mobile communication networks. This fiscal year, we formulated various requirements for the demonstration environment in preparation for its implementation. We will continue to advance initiatives toward a comprehensive verification test from fiscal 2026 to fiscal 2027.

Director, Asayama: . From Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, please.

General Manager Ogiwara (Radio Department, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications Telecommunications Bureau): At Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, we are working on the V2X communication standard and the V2N communication environment, which are the two points on page 17, from the viewpoint of environmental improvement necessary for autonomous driving.

First, please take a look at page 18. Regarding V2X communications, in fiscal 2024, we conducted technical tests and verifications using the 5.9 GHz frequency band, including radio wave interference studies and radio wave propagation tests. In fiscal 2025, in cooperation with the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and National Police Agency, we will conduct driving demonstrations and verification of effectiveness, including the provision of merge support information using 5.9 GHz V2X communications and the provision of look-ahead information, in some sections of the Shintona Expressway, which is a precedent area for self-driving service support roads. As for initiatives from fiscal 2026 onward, which are described in the lower right of page 18, we will further advance demonstrations and verifications in the Tohoku Expressway, which is a precedent area for self-driving service support roads, and other areas, and based on the results of these verifications, we will sequentially advance institutional initiatives, such as allocating frequencies in the 5.9 GHz band to V2X communications and formulating technical standards.

Next, on page 19, regarding the examination of V2N communication environments. In fiscal 2024, we measured and evaluated the actual performance of V2N communication through cellular phone networks on the Shintona Expressway, and examined promising use cases for V2N communication and conducted a technical arrangement. In fiscal 2025, in cooperation with Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, we will conduct driving demonstration and effectiveness verification using promising use cases, in particular, V2N communication environments corresponding to remote monitoring and provision of look-ahead information and data-linked infrastructure, etc., on some sections of the Shintona Expressway.

In addition, as initiatives for fiscal 2026 and beyond, which are described in the lower right of page 17, we would like to examine and demonstrate issues related to ensuring the stability of wireless communications in environments with steep slopes and steep inclines, especially on the Tohoku Expressway. If necessary, we will support and promote the development of mobile phone networks for applications such as remote monitoring.

Director, Asayama: . Please explain from the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Bureau of Manufacturing Industry.

Deputy Director-General Tanaka (Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Bureau of Manufacturing Industry): Please refer to page 20 of Document 2. As described in ③, in fiscal 2024, we conducted a demonstration of an autonomous driving service using L2 taxis and a highway demonstration using L2 trucks. However, we have not been able to overcome the problem of high costs, so we hope to build a standard model of autonomous driving and an open data set for taxi-type services, including remote monitoring and hit-and-run services. For details, please refer to page 22 later.

⑦ In order to reduce the cost of the main technology, we are developing a change point detection technology using probe car data to update a high-precision three dimensional map. For example, if there is information in advance that road construction is being carried out, we actually drive and check how it was. As a result, we achieved a certain level of accuracy, but we hope to further improve the accuracy in fiscal 2025.

In FY 2025, we will further improve and expand the scenarios and improve the accuracy of the simulation tool.

Next, on page 21, (18), we have been examining issues in mixed spaces at Kashiwanoha regarding cooperative systems in mixed spaces and infrastructure-cooperative automated driving systems, and will continue to examine issues in FY2013.

Finally, in (21), in cooperation with the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and National Police Agency, we formulated and published a guide to social implementation. In particular, it provides a list of procedures from consideration of the introduction of autonomous driving to the necessary procedures for examination. This guide is scheduled to be updated to reflect the accumulated knowledge.

Director, Asayama: . Next, please give an explanation from the Commerce and Information Policy Bureau.

Mr. Moriya (Information Economy Division, Commerce and Information Policy Bureau, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry): With regard to the mobility hub that Mr. Ishida Commerce and Information Policy Bureau. First, regarding (vi), regarding the development of consolidated bases for transfer and transshipment, this fiscal year, we conducted a survey on the development methods and functions, etc., of the consolidated bases called mobility hubs, especially logistics bases. From next fiscal year 2025, we will continue to consider the development methods and functions, etc., based on the results of this survey.

In addition, please refer to page 26 regarding the development of automated driving service support roads described in (xv). This fiscal year, as an early harvest project under the National Comprehensive Development Plan for Digital Lifelines, we have promoted the development of automated driving service support roads in priority areas with the cooperation of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, and National Police Agency. As a result, by the end of this fiscal year, we were able to provide information from infrastructure on general roads around Omika station, Hitachi City, and to implement automated driving service support roads in advance in the approximately 100 km section between Numazu and Hamamatsu on the Shintona Expressway for autonomous vehicle priority lanes. In fiscal 2025 and beyond, based on these demonstration projects, we will link them to future guidelines and roadmaps and promote initiatives to expand them. In fiscal 2026 and beyond, we will consider extending the route from Tohoku to Kyushu in light of logistics needs and the state of vehicle development in the medium to long term.

Director, Asayama: . I would like to ask for explanations from each bureau of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. First, please ask from the Policy Bureau.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): Please refer to page 27. I would like to talk about the promotion of co-creation by local transport stakeholders as described in (v), and the related public support system. In May 2024, the Council for Realization of Re-Design, which consists of 12 related ministries and agencies, was compiled, and basic matters based on this were compiled as government guidelines. Guidelines in individual fields such as education, nursing care, and welfare were prepared for each field and issued to local governments including prefectures. In addition, for specific projects, we support projects in various parts of the country under our budget system called "Co-creation and MaaS Project." Regarding this support system, we established a new system for efforts to resolve traffic gaps in local governments based on awareness of issues such as lack of transportation. We will continue to provide flexible support in the future.

Director, Asayama: . Next, please explain from the Logistics and Automobile Bureau.

Kubota-shi Deputy Director-General (Deputy Director-General, Bureau of Transportation and Automobiles, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): Please refer to page 31. Regarding (2), the Mobility Roadmap states that the number of full-year autonomous driving operations on public roads will be doubled to 20 or more in fiscal 2024, and it is expected that this will be implemented at 20 or more locations as of the end of fiscal 2024. In addition, the profitability of the project is being discussed within the framework of a study group jointly chaired by Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism.

Regarding (xi), we grasped cases that contributed to the examination of evaluation methods by asking local governments participating in the subsidy project to report on the effects of the introduction of autonomous driving and by conducting interviews. We will continue to grasp more cases and compile a method to evaluate the degree of contribution to the social impact that autonomous driving brings to the region by around fiscal 2027.

For (iii), please refer to page 33. In June last year, in cooperation with Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry and National Police Agency, we compiled a guide for social implementation and commercialization of initiatives to ensure transparent and fair procedures required for autonomous driving examinations. As specific initiatives, we established local communities consisting of local governments, business operators, and local administrative agencies to build a national support system and support local initiatives for the deployment of autonomous driving services. In addition, in June last year, we formulated and announced guidelines that indicate safety standards for autonomous vehicles to clarify examination details, procedures, and forms. We will continue to implement initiatives based on these documents.

Director, Asayama: . Please explain from the Road Bureau.

Section Chief Kobayashi (Planning Division, Road Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): I would like to explain how we are promoting initiatives to support autonomous driving from the road infrastructure. Please refer to page 36. As mentioned earlier from Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, we started verification test on the 3rd of this month to realize autonomous driving trucks. During the late night hours on weekdays, we set up autonomous driving priority lanes and started experiments on road-vehicle coordination systems such as merging support.

Please refer to page 37. Prior to the experiment, in order to raise awareness of the experiment and improve social acceptance, we are opening the site to the press in the Suruga Bay Numazu service area.

Please refer to page 38. From the next fiscal year, we plan to expand it to the Tohoku Expressway. Based on such experimental verification, we will create various standards for the infrastructure necessary for the autonomous driving service support road.

Please refer to page 39. This is about general roads. From the viewpoint of making self-driving cars run more safely and smoothly on general roads as well, we are conducting verification test in cooperation with projects on the vehicle side for the purpose of formulating technical standards and guidelines related to road-vehicle coordination systems and road spaces. We plan to conduct verification test in the next fiscal year as well, and announced the implementation sites for fiscal 2025 on the 26th of last month. We have just adopted 13 local governments for road-vehicle coordination systems and two local governments for verification test of travel spaces. Based on these verification results, we plan to formulate technical standards for road-vehicle coordination systems by fiscal 2026.

On pages 40 and 41, the outline of the road-vehicle coordination system and the verification test of the travel space is described. Please refer to page 42 at the end. Regarding infrastructure support, the Autonomous Driving Infrastructure Study Group established by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, National Police Agency, and Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications is conducting a study while listening to the opinions of experts. In the future, based on the latest trends such as robotaxis, we will continue to study how to support the infrastructure side, including road structures contributing to autonomous driving, road-vehicle coordination systems, and road traffic information such as construction regulations.

Director, Asayama: . Next, I would like to explain the draft outline of the Mobility Roadmap. It is divided into Materials 3 and 4, but I will mainly explain Material 3. The "Current Situation and Challenges in Mobility Services" and the "Concept of the Mobility Roadmap 2025" in Material 3 correspond to Materials 1 and 2, respectively. I will describe in Material 4-2 the direction in which measures should be promoted in the future, and I will describe in Material 4-3 the direction in which measures should be promoted with particular priority. The main measures are summarized on the right side of Page 1 of Material 3.

First, in Appendix 4, "Current Status and Challenges," I plan to describe the background to the formulation of the Mobility Roadmap 2025. Specifically, as described on page 2 of Appendix 3, I believe that autonomous driving will make considerable progress in fiscal 2027. In particular, Waymo is considering entering the Robotak service business in Japan in fiscal 2027. Given this situation, it is important to prepare an environment for autonomous driving in 2024 and 2025 and to promote measures by related ministries and agencies. It is of course important to demonstrate autonomous driving technology, but it is also important to promote measures for actual commercialization.

Please refer to page 1 of Appendix 3. In order to maintain public transportation, it is necessary to fully capture potential demand and improve the efficiency of mobility services, and it is also necessary to promote this in order to establish autonomous driving services. In addition, in order to ensure freedom of movement, it is important to eliminate the gap between autonomous driving technology in the United States and China while recognizing the difference between urban and rural areas. To date, demonstration has been progressing nationwide with the cooperation of related ministries and agencies, but there are still few examples of year-round operation, and it is a future issue.

According to the concept of Roadmap 2025, it is necessary to improve the efficiency of mobility services by integrating supply and demand, and to actively create demand for mobility. In doing so, we would like to advance the measures of each ministry and agency in order to establish a rational investment climate by jointly using and developing digital infrastructure. In addition, even if autonomous driving services are established in urban areas, it may be difficult to establish local mobility services in rural areas, so I believe it is necessary to redesign how the entire service can be established. In order to establish such services, it is necessary to carefully consider the digital infrastructure that should be jointly used, and I believe it is necessary to advance the measures of each ministry and agency while being aware of which parts fall into the cooperative area. In addition, I believe it is important to advance measures to shift autonomous driving technology from demonstration to commercialization.

As we have been considering since last year, the development of social rules is also important in order to commercialize autonomous driving technology, and various environmental improvements will need to be promoted in the future. As a priority measure, it is important to establish the functions of a transportation trading company to ensure the freedom of movement of local residents. Specific measures include the development of a policy-making system that goes beyond the investigation and vertical division of potential demands, support for the establishment of a service designing function that integrates supply and demand, and the development and introduction of a digital infrastructure for joint use. It is also important to develop support measures for the implementation of autonomous driving technology, and in addition to reducing the introduction of initial costs, it is necessary to establish a rational division of labor and set up a cooperation area. In addition, we would like to promote the development and dissemination of not only vehicles but also necessary technologies such as road-vehicle cooperation technology. In addition, we will firmly advance the development of a system against accidents and the improvement of social acceptability as matters to be considered on an ongoing basis.

Finally, it is important to concentrate the measures of the relevant ministries and agencies, and I would like each ministry and agency to consider the measures for the next fiscal year for that purpose. This is the outline, but I have not explained the contents of Document 4 in detail, so I would appreciate your opinions during the Q & A session.

Now let's move on to the exchange of views. I would like to introduce the views of Mr. Koda and Mr. Suda, who are absent today.

Regarding the profitability of autonomous driving, Koda expressed the opinion that while distribution and on-demand transportation are easy to predict, it would be possible to eliminate the inconvenience of transportation by giving up bus and train lines as an alternative to public transportation and considering on-demand transportation. In addition, there are safety issues in situations where autonomous buses and ordinary passenger cars are mixed on ordinary roads, and when autonomous driving runs on ordinary roads, it is necessary not only to improve the safety of autonomous driving but also to establish rules to avoid risks and accidents.

As the global situation surrounding autonomous driving is changing, Mr. Suda commented that it is important for Japan to present a one step ahead target. The Tokyo Olympics was a good opportunity, but given that it was not fully utilized, it may be necessary to commercialize double-digit autonomous electric buses at Level 4 and equivalent to Level 4 at the Kansai Expo. Regarding the number of buses, he commented that a target of at least 10 buses should be set. Furthermore, in Appendix 2, the efforts of the relevant ministries and agencies are comprehensively introduced, but it is better for Digital Agency and the Government of Japan to clearly present a single line.

That's all the opinions of those who are absent, so we will exchange opinions. When you speak, please let us know by the show of hands button or the chat function in Teams, and when you speak, please unmute the microphone. We are looking forward to hearing your opinions.

Mr. Ishida: Regarding the elimination of the traffic vacuum and the position of autonomous driving mentioned by Director-General Murakami in I would like to say about three things that I felt in my own way. First of all, regarding the structure of the table of contents and the image of the structure in Appendix 4, I think that the importance of realizing autonomous driving as soon as possible is really true. However, there is a rapid increase in traffic vacuum areas that require a considerable amount of urgency in terms of time and space. As a countermeasure for that, autonomous driving alone is not enough. Therefore, I think it is necessary to state more clearly how we think about mobility services, so I would like to ask you to consider it.

Next, Mr. Director-General Murakami explained the three step approach to demand estimation. I think it's a good idea. However, I think there is a problem of how to understand the information that new services have brought latent demand to the surface. From that point of view, in the autonomous driving society implementation promotion project conducted by the Distribution and Automobile Bureau of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, autonomous driving buses are already operating at nearly 100 locations nationwide. I think it is important to share how demand is going on in that project. In addition, various initiatives are being taken by Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry and the Mobility Service Promotion Division of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, so I think it is necessary to properly organize the facts of what will actually happen or is likely to happen. At SIP, we are also trying to firmly advance such things, so I would like to help you in areas where we can cooperate.

Finally, regarding the issue of distribution trucks, the spread of self-driving service support roads is steadily advancing, and verification test has started, so I would like to see this steadily advanced. On the other hand, hubs are very important for distribution in the future when drivers are replaced and vehicles are replaced. In my view, we should definitely consider collaboration with the many private distribution facilities that exist around expressway interchanges. In order to effectively utilize these facilities, I thought that we should also consider whether the Shitamichi from the exit of the interchange to there serves as an ODD, what kind of ground-side equipment is necessary, who will pay for it and how, and whether there are any obstacles in the legal system.

Director, Asayama: . Thank you, Mr. Kawabata.

Kawabata: This time, I think it was very good that you summarized the entire document. In particular, on pages 4 to 6 of Document 2, you summarized important things well and it was easy to understand. In the explanation, I think it was very good that I was able to gain knowledge that regional mobility issues were shared through the hearing. I think it will be very important in the future to share this with each region and basic local government.

Overall, when it comes to software and digital, I think we can respond in a relatively short period of time as long as we invest money. However, human factors such as human resource development and recruitment, as well as hardware development and infrastructure changes, take time. Therefore, I thought we needed to separate physical platforms and digital platforms chronologically.

The current situation is that all the issues are listed in the announcements of the relevant ministries and agencies. I think that both digital and physical platforms will be common areas and areas of cooperation. Regarding such areas, I think it would be good to sort out those that will take time and those that will move if investment is made. Especially in the area of cooperation, I think that the speed of cooperation with existing services will affect the speed. It may be emphasized to develop new domestic products, but in order to proceed with speed, I think it is necessary to find out where existing services can be used and utilize them.

I also think that robots will be involved in mobility. I think that things that move outdoors are related to traditional people's flow, distribution, and small mobility, but indoor mobility is also important. I think that robot-ready town building will come out in the context of robots. In that case, if there is a digital twin, such as one that has indoor and outdoor map data, it will be easier to realize. It is important that robots can move around in indoor people's flow and distribution, and that they seamlessly seep out into the outdoors and work together with traditional mobility. I think it would be good if you could include that point in the overall picture. Since there are many common technical aspects, we thought that the increase in solutions would promote platform depreciation and make it easier to invest.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much, Mr. Akimoto.

Member SUZUKI (Alternate: Mr. Akimoto): I would like to make three comments. First, I understand that various measures are being implemented in each ministry, but I thought it would be very easy to understand if you could summarize the correlation and cooperation of each in consideration of the time frame.

Regarding the second point, regarding page 6 of Handout 2, which was explained by Director-General Murakami, I believe that there will be issues regarding operation management in the future. In the case of operation management of drones, in Japan, private service providers are moving to conduct operation management, but overseas, there are some countries that conduct operation management. This regional transportation is so-called public transportation, so I would like to ask your thoughts on who will develop and operate operation management.

The third point is about the construction of Cabinet Office's smart mobility platform on page 13 of Handout 2. In the explanation from Director-General Murakami, there was a point of creating logic tree through interviews and grasping the supply and demand situation. I felt that if such data were put into a digital sandbox and an optimal operation plan was automatically generated, it would greatly facilitate on-site surveys and various operations. However, I wonder if operation management data does not come into this platform, and I would appreciate it if you could also explain that point.

Director, Asayama: Thank you. Several questions have been put together, so I would like to ask the relevant ministries and agencies to answer them. First of all, Professor Ishida gave us an opinion that we should consider other means of transportation because we cannot make it in time with only automatic driving in a traffic vacant area, so please give us a comment from the Policy Bureau of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): I received a similar comment from Koda . Without being bound by the concept of area, we have set up the Traffic Vacuum Elimination Headquarters with the aim of eliminating the shortage of mobility, and the entire ministry is working on it. Since the situation of traffic vacuum varies from area to area, we are providing comprehensive support, including support systems and budgets, such as creating catalogs, developing human resources, and making various connections through the Public-Private Partnership Platform, in order to make it easier to think about prescriptions according to local conditions. In addition, Mr. Ishida pointed out that various efforts are being made on MaaS. In particular, I feel that we are beginning to see cases where it is actually used as a digital infrastructure. For example, in Maebashi City, Gunma Prefecture, what was originally Maebashi City's efforts are spreading throughout Gunma Prefecture, and there are moves to expand it to cities outside the prefecture within the budget we are currently recruiting. If necessary, I would like to share my knowledge in this working.

Director, Asayama: . The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's Bureau of Logistics and Motor Vehicles is conducting a project to support autonomous buses, and we have received opinions on whether data linkage, etc., can be done, so please give us your comments.

Kubota-shi Deputy Director-General (Deputy Director-General, Bureau of Transportation and Automobiles, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): This fiscal year, we have provided support for bus projects at 99 locations. In implementing these projects, we are cooperating with subsidiary projects implemented by other departments and related ministries and agencies, such as road-to-vehicle cooperation. For example, we are giving priority to local governments that are receiving support from road-to-vehicle cooperation. We are promoting this project not only by this project but also through horizontal cooperation.

In addition, with regard to your opinion that you would like us to coordinate information across the board, we are actually working on the initiatives I just mentioned, but I feel that it is difficult for you to understand them. I think there are some parts that are not fully explained, so I would like to explain what the situation is like from the next meeting. To give you an outline, we are considering a plan to support those out of the 99 sites that are expected to be commercialized or have business potential as priority areas from the next fiscal year. This is a plan to give priority support to those that are highly versatile, so I would like to talk about it again.

Director, Asayama: . As for the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry Bureau of Commerce and Information Policy, there was a question about how the burden of the mobility hub should be, so please give us your comments.

Mr. Moriya (Information Economy Division, Commerce and Information Policy Bureau, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry): With regard to the mobility hub that Mr. Ishida pointed out, how to realize it while utilizing existing facilities is a very important point of view. Based on your comments, we will continue to consider how to realize it in cooperation with the relevant ministries and agencies.

Director, Asayama: operation control, there was talk about whether it should be done by the national government or by the private sector. I would like to ask Director-General Murakami to make some comments.

Murakami Director-General: Overall, I would like to talk about three points. The first one was about priority areas. In addition, I received a comment that the overall picture would be better if the horizontal collaboration among related ministries and agencies was organized a little more. At present, we are in the process of deciding priority areas with related ministries and agencies and considering a scheme to intensively apply the measures of related ministries and agencies to the priority areas. By the next meeting, I hope to be able to make a proposal on what kind of combination and what we should aim for. However, foreign-owned robotaxis that run in urban areas are limited to urban areas, so I don't think we need to chase the same thing. In addition, if it is a fixed route that runs on time like Iyo Railway Co., Ltd buses and is easy to run, we are one step away from commercialization, so I don't think we need to concentrate the measures of each ministry and agency to aim for the same. Deputy Director-General

Therefore, I would like to proceed with discussions with the relevant ministries and agencies about setting goals. Whether to exclude on-time operations and specific routes, or whether to give priority to regions that are challenged by specific advanced technologies such as road-vehicle coordination, or whether to make it a requirement for priority regions to be regions that engage in traffic trading company-like initiatives including demand, as you mentioned earlier about hubs, I think it is important to decide on requirements that should be sought as goals and provide intensive support. One of the requirements is that we aim to develop traffic management horizontally from the beginning as much as possible, rather than building it into each local government. There are several key points, such as what to do on the premise that we are aiming for joint use of traffic management systems, and where to focus when considering vehicle types. We are at the stage of discussing these with the relevant ministries and agencies, so I would like to hear your opinions. In particular, if we are to decide on priority support regions, it is meaningless to focus support on initiatives that can be realized only in those regions because what has been achieved in the priority regions ahead of schedule will not be developed horizontally nationwide. I would like to hear your guidance on that.

In addition, there were several discussions on data-related issues, which I believe are extremely important. In fact, the Digital Administrative and Fiscal Reform Council is conducting discussions on the premise that a bill on data-related issues will be submitted in ordinary Diet one year from now. Currently, procedures to protect data-related issues under the Act on the Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal Information Held by Administrative Organs and Other Means of Protection of Personal people's flow

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much, Mr. Akio Yamamoto.

Member YAMAMOTO Keiji (Alternate: YAMAMOTO Akio): I would like to make two remarks on . First, I believe that the "challenges of overall mobility services" in the "Configuration Image of Mobility Roadmap 2025" will be an important theme in the future. I believe that autonomous driving is also effective as a solution to the driver shortage problem.

Second, in order to solve the driver shortage, I think that the autonomous driving service currently being demonstrated needs to be continued from the first train to the last train at Level 4. However, I think there are many difficult traffic environments that end up at Level 2. For example, I heard that the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is considering whether a road-to-vehicle coordination service would be effective in situations such as turning right at intersections. In order to spread this road-to-vehicle coordination technology, there is a problem that the cost of RSU will not come down unless the demand for RSU installation and the RSU market are increased. Therefore, I think that we should consider utilizing the road-to-vehicle coordination service in areas other than autonomous driving. For example, by expanding the road-to-vehicle coordination service to areas other than autonomous driving, such as reducing traffic accidents by using RSU to support safe driving of existing vehicles, I thought that a scenario could be considered that would lead to the expansion of autonomous driving and contribute to solving the driver shortage.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much, Mr. Wakana.

Wakana: This is about the actual situation of the shortage of human resources for Handout 3.

The first point is that passenger service alone may not be viable as a business model for development in rural areas. I think it is necessary to quantitatively understand the demand for freight and services. For example, in rural areas, there are various services such as mobile books, glasses, medical examinations, home delivery, and home meals, so I think it is important to incorporate these as well. In rural areas, there is little population, so there is a lot of resistance to putting people on board when introducing autonomous driving. I think it is meaningful to start with transporting freight and gain social recognition.

The second point is how to select the priority districts. In order to quantify and organize the functions that connect the supply side and the demand side in order to horizontally develop the functions of a transportation trading company, I think it is necessary to preferentially select the districts where the transportation trading company is located. In that case, I don't think it is necessary for the supply side, the transportation trading company, and the demand side to be independent. For example, the supply side and the demand side may assume the transportation trading company functions. However, it is necessary to be able to clearly separate and visualize the transportation trading company functions.

The third point is that in Handout 2, I think the point of separating the operator and the vehicle owner to promote autonomous driving is a very good idea, but there is a practical issue of insurance. If the owner and the operator are separated, it will be difficult to continue ride-sharing because the current ride-sharing requires insurance for both and the insurance fee will be high. I feel that support is also needed for insurance.

Director, Asayama: . Thank you, Mr. Muramatsu.

Member MURAMATSU: I would like to make two comments. The first is about the verification of business profitability on page 32 of Handout 2. I don't mean to look at it from the top, but I recognize it as a very good initiative. If you have any examples that are sound and profitable at the moment and have established a business model, or if there are examples that can be immediately developed nationwide in the presentation of this fiscal year's results, I would like you to share them with us. I think that by developing examples that are profitable horizontally, they will spread nationwide. Even on a small scale, it would be good to accumulate successful experiences little by little and aim to expand from there.

Second, when local governments introduce autonomous driving, etc., if consulting companies, etc., provide hand-in-hand support, the initial cost will increase and it will be difficult to spread it. I think it is important to create an environment where everyone can use it and it is easy to introduce, and by finally developing something like a volume of a tiger, if you read it, the whole picture from the first to the tenth, such as stakeholders and to-dos, will be clear, and you can easily introduce autonomous driving by yourself.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Mr. Hidaka.

Mr. Hidaka: Since the mayor of . The first is a comment on the announcement by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism Comprehensive Policy Bureau. A study meeting was held for the realization of the regional public transport plan, and I also participated in the interim report. I understand that the concept of transport, data utilization, and monitoring will be announced for each local government within this fiscal year. There was a similar story from Digital Agency, so I think it would be good to consider cooperation and division after the report is compiled.

The second point is about transportation trading companies. They have been updated to "Mobility Roadmap 2024" and "Mobility Roadmap 2025," and I think they have become more specific and have been updated as they progress. I would like to make a comment on this proposal. In the second phase of SIP, we are working on project evaluation, and we are thinking about whether we can create a model Architecture for autonomous driving or mobility services by fiscal 2025. For example, we can improve express delivery by increasing the rated speed rather than the average speed for trunk traffic. In order to increase the flow, we can use priority lanes, mobility hubs, AI signals, and various Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications communication technologies. In the case of leaf traffic, how to increase the area coverage ratio is important. Safety is also important, but if there is no transportation efficiency, users will not get on. I think there are various measures, including matching technology. Through these, efforts by related ministries and agencies, private sector technology development, and new technology from startups will be well integrated into parts, and we will be able to see how transportation trading companies operate, how to implement it in underpopulated areas, how to implement it in urban areas, and what goals we should aim for in technology development. If we can do that, even if we define it as a mobility industry instead of an automobile industry, we will be able to solve Japan's problems while creating competitiveness overseas.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Mr. Tsuchida.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): I would like to comment on the opinion of Mr. Ishida , a member of the panel, commented on the cooperation with the study group for the realization of the regional public transport plan. The Regional Transport Division is in charge of this, so I would like to cooperate with them and cooperate with the relevant ministries and agencies as necessary. I would appreciate your continued support.

Today, I am attending the meeting on behalf of Mr. Hikaru Ike of the Public Transport Policy Deputy Director-General. I would like to comment on the image of the structure of Handout 4. We have already started consulting with the secretariat, but I would like to mention the points that we consider important. First of all, this department is in charge of regional transport, but the most urgent and biggest issue is the shortage of drivers. As you are all aware, even if there is demand in the region, it cannot be supplied due to the shortage of drivers, so the number of route buses has been reduced or abolished. We believe that autonomous driving will be positioned as a prescription for this issue. The traffic vacuum caused by the shortage of drivers is an urgent issue, and the Ministry has established a Traffic Vacuum Elimination Headquarters and is working as a whole to address it. All the Transport Bureaus are mobilizing to deal with it. We are facing the demand for public transport itself on the ground.

Although it is often misunderstood, we use the words "traffic vacuum" and "" instead of "traffic vacuum." This use of words does not refer to the concept of a "vacuum" area, but to a situation where there is a shortage of transportation based on the judgment of each local government. We are working on this situation from the front. I would appreciate it if you could describe the background of this in each item from 1 to 3. I will separately convey the details to the secretariat, but I would like to consult with you on the points I will mention in particular. Regarding 1.2.1, "Existence of potential demand for public transportation and progress in efforts to eliminate the shortage of transportation," I would like to add the phrase "eliminating the' traffic vacuum'" partly because the ministry is working as a whole.

In addition, I would like to comment on the use of the term "potential demand." Based on the actual situation, I believe that demand will not shift even if public transportation becomes more convenient when traveling by private car. On the other hand, it is very important to dig out the demand of people who cannot use private cars and the demand itself. I think it would be good if the expression conveys such a point. At the beginning of the "Basic Concept," I would be grateful if you could include the division's sense of challenge that autonomous driving is required as a solution to the problem of a shortage of local transportation leaders.

Lastly, regarding the function of a transportation trading company, I believe that the function of a transportation trading company is a very important concept. On the other hand, I believe that the function of a transportation trading company is one of the various policies necessary to maintain and ensure public transportation. I hope that this will be conveyed.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much. I am not sure if I can answer this, but the reason why I have not used the phrase "traffic vacuum" is that the image of "traffic vacuum" has been discussed in the public in recent discussions. Since there are people who have difficulty moving even in cities, I have used the current expression. I would like to hear suggestions from experts on how to express this point.

In addition, autonomous driving is one of the tools to solve the driver shortage. However, there are problems in terms of cost and social acceptance, and it has not been easy to spread. We would like to work toward implementation while utilizing the support measures of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. After that, I would like to consult with you separately about the method of description.

Lastly, I would like to ask about the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. We do not believe that having a Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism will solve everything. We believe that a Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is just one of the necessary conditions. It is important to demonstrate other measures as well. We hope that the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism will continue to support us.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): I would like to comment on the opinion of Mr. Ishida .

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much, Mr. Hanami.

Mr. Saito (Deputy: Mr. Hanami): These are my impressions and comments as I am attending on behalf of Mr. Saito. First of all, on page 1 of Handout 3, you presented a roadmap, and I felt that the discussions so far have been very well organized. Especially the part on the left. I believe that the function of a transportation trading company is very important in terms of matching supply and demand in an integrated manner. However, as I explained, there are regional differences. Therefore, I believe that various factors such as the approach, combination, severity of the issue, and scale will differ. A data base is necessary to match these. I believe that a transportation trading company function that skillfully combines different functions in different regions is required. We, the Information-Technology Promotion Agency Digital Architecture Design Center (IPADADC), are well studying the data base. Creating common functions in module units and combining them as many as necessary to configure the necessary and sufficient functions that suit the regions will contribute to minimizing costs. I believe that such a basic design should be carefully studied in the future. I hope that we will continue to deepen our discussions on what the data base and common base should be for matching supply and demand.

Director, Asayama: . Thank you, Mr. Okamoto.

Member : I would like to comment on Materials 2 and 3. As described on page 6 of Material 2, which is arranged for discussion, there are different requirements and risks for each business element, so I agree with the idea of considering them separately. However, when considering them separately, I don't think it is necessary to consider them separately for each business operator. Depending on the area, there may be cases where the same business operator takes charge of multiple business elements. Even if we consider support measures for each business element, I didn't think it was necessary for the business operators to be separated.

Next, regarding the outline of the mobility roadmap on page 1 of Handout 3, I feel that the function of a transportation trading company is extremely important. Amidst this, I believe that electric vehicles will advance. In addition to matching travel demand, it will also be necessary to match the energy used to move vehicles. By combining this with local renewable energy, I believe we can contribute to reducing local CO2 emissions and strengthening resilience. In addition, it has been found that estimating charging data and battery status leads to observing the behavior of vehicles and moving people. I believe that superimposing this energy data will help the function of a transportation trading company. For example, we, as an electric power company, have smart meter data. In the future, we will be able to analyze smart meters in detail, and we will be able to find out if there are signs of frailty in people at home, so I think it is extremely important to use superimposed data.

In addition, we believe that it is important to match the characteristics of each region, regardless of whether it is an urban or rural area. We, as an electric power company, are responsible for the sustainability of our business, regardless of whether it is an urban or rural area, and we have people in every region. We believe that we can play a part in the transportation trading company function because we are a company rooted in the region.

Autonomous driving is important for Japan, where the number of people is decreasing. In doing so, I believe that road-vehicle coordination is important. Roadside infrastructure is important, and I believe that it is also important to utilize our infrastructure. In addition, I would like you to sort out the breakdown of responsibility in the event of an accident.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Mr. Hatano.

Member HATANO: I would like to express my sincere appreciation for your efforts in considering extremely difficult issues and compiling the Mobility Roadmap 2025 based on a new phase. I have no particular major objections to individual measures and initiatives. I felt that the chapters in the Mobility Roadmap 2025 presented this time do not have much relevance to the Mobility Roadmap 2024. To be more specific, I feel that the chapters make it a little difficult to confirm how the issues and challenges raised in the Mobility Roadmap 2024 have been addressed, to what extent they have been resolved, and whether there has been progress at this stage. It may be difficult to significantly change the overall flow, but I felt that it would be good if you could give consideration to sustainable written expressions. By doing so, I think it will be easier to confirm the value of the measures and the effects of the systems you are working on. I hope you will consider it.

Director, Asayama: . I will consider it when I write it down from now. At this point, I would like to describe the progress of measures of related ministries and agencies and future efforts in the reference materials of Material 4, and summarize future policies based on how the progress has progressed. Nice to meet you, Director-General Murakami.

Murakami Director-General: I would like to respond to some of your comments. First of all, I think the issue of insurance is very important. Especially when you think about commercialization, the way insurance should be is exactly as you say. According to the current idea, there are separate insurances for risks caused by the operation management system and risks related to the lack of performance of the vehicles themselves, and if the operators are separated, each of them will be charged. In this case, it is important that the point of decomposition of responsibility when a problem occurs is clearly drawn between the two. I think it will be related to the discussion at last year's sub-working. As Mr. Okamoto pointed out, the pros and cons of dividing layers by business elements and operating different layers by a single operator are different issues. In other words, it may be possible to argue that both should be operated together because the way insurance should be reasonable. At present, from the viewpoint of vehicle ownership, it is very difficult to proceed with commercialization without subsidies because the number of vehicles is completely insufficient. In order to commercialize it, we will have to consider commercialization on a scale of not only 100 vehicles but also several thousand vehicles in the end. In order to do so, there is still no clear direction in sight, whether it should be separated across areas or whether a huge operation management business including an operation management system should be grown in Japan. In such a situation, I would like to hear your opinions on which direction is preferable.

I think Mr. Tsuchida's opinion is just as you said. As the secretariat, we will move forward in a positive way. In particular, we very much welcome your request that it be broadly expressed as "eliminating the' traffic vacuum'" rather than "traffic vacuum." In addition, regarding potential demand, this term is understood by this working group, but I am wondering if it is a more intuitive term. I would appreciate it if you could give me a better expression of the potential demand that transportation trading companies should manifest.

Also, related to Mr. Ishida's comments, we need to talk about what the overall mobility service should be like to eliminate the regional traffic vacuum, and how autonomous vehicles will be involved in it. I think this will clarify the requirements for regions that should be intensively supported. We will discuss it with the relevant ministries and agencies, and I would like to hear from all the members if they have an overall image including manned operation and an image of the parts that can be gradually replaced by autonomous driving.

As you pointed out, matching with energy is also an area that has not been discussed much. I would like to hear from the electric power industry about what they can be involved in in relation to transportation trading companies. For example, by analyzing the data from the distribution board every five minutes, we can grasp the movement of equipment in the home from the characteristics of the waveform, and by extension, we can understand the behavior pattern. I think your statement was based on the progress of technology. I would be grateful if you could give us more wisdom on how to use such technology in transportation trading companies.

I agree with Mr. Hatano about the chapter layout. I agree that if the structure is changed too much, it will be difficult to check the continuity and progress. Therefore, I would like to carefully consider which is better, devising the structure or putting the progress from the Mobility Roadmap 2024 somewhere in some form that is easy to see. As far as the roadmap is concerned, I would like to give consideration so that the progress from last year is easy to see.

In addition, regarding the model Architecture that Mr. Hidaka mentioned, I would like to make it and I think it should be made, but I would like to continue to consider whether it is feasible.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Mr. Hidaka.

Mr. Hidaka: Since the mayor of traffic vacuum. Many bus and railway operators are applying for a reduction in the number of buses and the closure of lines one after another. There are many people who say that it is difficult or impossible for them to go to school. It is necessary to resolve this. However, even private sector, which operates rationally, is withdrawing. If unprofitable municipal services are provided, there are concerns that the subsequent tax burden will increase. It would be greatly appreciated if Section Chief Tsuchida could talk about this line of demarcation, whether the policy is basically to fill the traffic vacuum or to judge whether it is necessary or not.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Mr. Tsuchida.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): I would like to comment on the opinion of Mr. Ishida We are working with enthusiasm to fill all the traffic gaps. Again, the traffic gap itself varies greatly, including the situation of local transportation operators and the intentions of residents. I believe that the head of the area should make a single, unambiguous decision on what constitutes a traffic gap. At present, we are planning to conduct a questionnaire to each local government asking, "Does the traffic gap exist?" This is because we attach importance to how local governments perceive the traffic gap first. If local governments answer, "We are aware of the problem of the traffic gap," we will invest our various resources in responding to it and strive to resolve it while providing maximum assistance for accompanying passengers.

Mr. Hidaka: Since the mayor of makes the decision, the wishes of the local residents must be reflected, and since the council is also discussing this, I understand that the necessary support will be provided to the necessary areas. Thank you very much.

Director, Asayama: . Thank you, Mr. Ishida.

Mr. Ishida: Regarding the elimination of the traffic vacuum and the position of autonomous driving mentioned by Director-General Murakami in , what is often said is that autonomous driving should be introduced to eliminate the driver shortage. However, I have recently strongly felt that it is biased toward the viewpoint of transportation companies. There have been attempts in various parts of Japan, albeit on a small scale, for citizens to become suppliers and users of transportation services themselves. How to support such citizen-led initiatives needs to be considered from the perspective of local residents, not from the perspective of companies. I would like to ask you to adopt such a perspective. This was to supplement my previous statement.

Director, Asayama: Thank you very much, Mr. Wakana.

Wakana: This is about the actual situation of the shortage of human resources for drivers. There are times when demand is concentrated, especially between nine in the morning and around noon. On the other hand, it can be seen that taxi drivers are also relatively free during other times of the day. Taxi operators say, "It's not a traffic vacuum. Please don't call it a traffic vacuum." When introducing autonomous driving, I feel that the biggest difficulty in passenger transportation is the large time variation in demand, whether it can be accommodated during times when there is a shortage during peak hours, or whether the base operation should be left to autonomous driving and supplemented by taxis and residents during peak hours. I think consideration is necessary from this perspective as well.

When it comes to regional transportation, we have the idea of trunk lines, branch lines, and leaves. My feeling is that trunk lines are shared large route buses operated by business operators. I don't think it's realistic to introduce door-to-door autonomous driving on leaves given the road conditions. Rather, I think it's realistic to introduce autonomous driving on branch lines. In particular, I feel that the most realistic option is to introduce autonomous driving where bus operators are withdrawing and municipalities are operating community buses with small vehicles.

Thank you for your answers to my insurance questions. As for ride-sharing, the development of insurance has been slow when it comes to on-site implementation. I would like to ask the government's support to work with insurance companies and the industry to develop suitable insurance as soon as possible.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Mr. Tsuchida.

Mr. Tsuchida (Mobility Services Promotion Division, Policy Bureau, Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism): I would like to comment on the opinion of Mr. Ishida . Initiatives such as cooperative ride-sharing, which collects only the actual costs that do not require permission and registration for services provided by residents, and public ride-sharing operated by NPOs, town planning councils, and regional management organizations (RMOs), as well as by local governments, are spreading in various regions as means to fill the transportation vacuum in the framework of private paid transportation. It may be necessary to discuss in the future when autonomous driving will be incorporated into these means of transportation, but in the field, we would like to grasp the actual situation of local transportation demand and support the introduction of such services in a form that matches the actual situation of the region.

Director, Asayama: . Nice to meet you, Director-General Murakami.

Murakami Director-General: Based on today's discussion, we will consider the goals that should be prioritized and the requirements that should be sought. It is a difficult issue, but we will consider it including distribution. There are several requirements, such as the idea from the route that Member Wakana mentioned earlier, the discussion on the types of vehicles, the requirements related to the development of hubs that Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry is promoting, and the initiatives for road-to-vehicle cooperation that the Road Bureau of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism is implementing. I will organize and present them from Digital Agency, but I would like to ask for guidance on the elements that should be included from the relevant ministries and agencies. If the Government is focusing its support on a specific area, please give us your ideas on the requirements that should be met. Thank you very much for your valuable opinions from various perspectives today.

Director, Asayama: . I would appreciate it if you could send any comments that you were unable to make to the Secretariat. In particular, if you have any wisdom regarding the requirements to be focused on, I would appreciate it if you could continue. Thank you in advance.

Now, I would like to explain the future schedule. Please refer to page 3 of Handout 3. The next meeting of the Mobility Working Group is scheduled for May 19. Although it was not the subject of today's discussion, I would like to explain the progress of the measures of the Sub-Working Group. Furthermore, I would like you to present a draft text of the Mobility Roadmap 2025 and discuss it. In the end, I believe that the Moriti Roadmap 2025 will be finalized in Meeting for the Promotion of a Digital Society around early June. That is all for the future schedule. That is all for today's agenda, but at the closing of the Working Group, I would like to ask Mr. Chief Mori to summarize the whole.

Mori Chief: Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy schedule to have so many people attend the meeting. I would also like to express my gratitude for the active discussion. Today, I feel that the discussion has become quite active since Digital Agency presented a factor analysis table for discussion. I thought that the approach of thinking in three ways would be effective in inducing easy-to-understand discussions.

In the latter half, I talked about how to look for traffic gaps and how to capture potential demand. For example, there are cases where elderly people go to hospital or go shopping together. It is a difficult task to find demand and find gaps just based on the current situation. Based on a questionnaire conducted by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's Bureau of Logistics and Automobiles and a fact-finding survey in an area close to the actual operation, we can grasp the amount of traffic that occurs and is concentrated by age and the number of trips, and by multiplying them by the population by age, we can determine how much demand there is. Comparing the demand estimated by this with the supply actually operated, we may be able to make an interesting analysis. I was asking because I thought this could lead to a numerical analysis of how to look for traffic gaps and how to capture potential demand.

In any case, it is important to narrow down the areas that we should focus on and discuss them for next fiscal year. If we examine the areas where we are working on autonomous driving, such as Iyo, Maebashi, Hitachi, and Minatomirai, and the areas where we are working toward 100 locations, we can see about 10 areas that we should aim for as models.

In addition, I would like to work with the support of the relevant ministries and agencies. From what I have heard, even if we conduct experiments at Level 4 of autonomous driving, I have heard that there is no consistency in the approval of autonomous driving or permission to use roads. I would like the relevant ministries and agencies to study it a little.

Lastly, the Mobility Roadmap 2025, which will be updated in the future. I believe that there may be a question as to whether the initiatives described in the reference materials should be classified by relevant ministries and agencies, and I hope that you will consider this point in the future.

In any case, I believe that there is a trend toward focusing measures on a limited number of regions to some extent. I would like to enter the compilation phase of this Mobility Roadmap 2025. I hope that the relevant ministries and agencies will cooperate and brush up on it. There are still many issues to be addressed, but based on the implementation of nearly 100 experiments and the understanding of needs, including the chief's questionnaire, I believe that we will soon be able to realize autonomous driving in a focused manner. I look forward to the above, and I would like to close my remarks and conclude my remarks. Thank you very much.

Director, Asayama: Thank you again for all your advice today. If you have any additional comments or advice, I would appreciate it if you could send them to the secretariat by the end of next week. The materials for the plenary meeting will be published on the Digital Agency website. The minutes will be published on the Digital Agency website as well after being reviewed by the experts. The next meeting will be as I announced earlier. As we compile the text from now on, I believe we will need the cooperation of the relevant ministries and agencies as the time is quite limited. Although it will be before Golden Week, I would appreciate your continued cooperation. I would like to close the 9th Mobility Working Group. Thank you very much.

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