7th Digital Society Initiative Conference

Last Updated:: Jul 18, 2023

Overview

Date: April 25, 2023 (Tue) from 16:30 to 18:00
Location: Online
Agenda:
1. Opening
2. Agenda
  1. Revision Points and Table of Contents (Draft) for Priority Plan in 2023
3. Adjournment

Meeting Video

The conference can be viewed on YouTube (Digital Agency official channel).

7th Digital Society Initiative Conference (YouTube)

Material

Minutes

Secretariat: As it is on time, the "Digital Society Concept Meeting" will now be held.

My name is Yoshida from Digital Agency, and I am the secretariat. Nice to meet you.

It will be held online today. This meeting itself, after confirmation by the Chair, will be held online and open to the press and others in accordance with the Operational Guidelines. I would like to announce that members of the press will be attending online.

In addition, as Mr. Kawabe's position has been changed in the reference material, I would like to replace it with this report.

I am aware that eight members will be attending online today. Members KAWABE, KUNIRYO, NATSUNO, and MURAOKA will not be attending, and I heard that member Mikitani will be leaving in the middle of the day, but he has not attended yet. I heard that member Koshizuka will be attending in the middle of the day.

In addition, State Minister for Foreign Affairs Minister Kono and State Minister for Foreign Affairs Okushi are attending from Digital Agency.

Now, Mr. Murai, please go ahead.

Chairman Murai: and colleagues. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us today.

Now, let's get started. First of all, Mr. Mr. Kono, Minister for Digital Transformation,, please say a few words.

Mr. Kono, Minister for Digital Transformation,: Thank you, . Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to attend the Digital Society Initiative Conference. I would like to express my deep gratitude to Chairman Murai and all the members.

At the previous conceptual meeting, we received valuable opinions on the realization of digital transformation, the importance of not only the perspective of providers but also the perspective of users, in other words, the perspective of citizens, as well as the significance of an international perspective, toward this year's revision of Priority Plan to realize a digital society.

This time, the Secretariat will continue to present the key points for the revision of the Priority Plan and the draft table of contents of the revision. We received opinions on this, and since the previous meeting, for example, AI has been discussed without delay, and its use has been progressing, so I look forward to today's discussion.

I would like to make one request regarding the Priority Plan. The content of the Priority Plan will be considered based on the discussions at the Framework Conference. As for the wording, we would like to make it easy for the people to understand and narrow down the points to make it a substantial plan in a true sense. Instructions to this effect have been given to the secretariat in the work of the text and timetable for the revision, and I would like to ask for your understanding.

At today's meeting, I would very much appreciate it if all the members of the Bureau would continue to give us their frank opinions on the revision of the Priority Plan List this summer. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: , thank you very much.

Now, I would like to move on to the agenda. Today's agenda is "Points of Revision and Proposed Table of Contents for Priority Plan 2023." We would like you to discuss the points of revision and the proposed table of contents in advance, and incorporate them into the agenda. As you mentioned earlier, I would like you to discuss the points of revision and the proposed table of contents in the direction that they will be decided here at the next meeting. Thank you very much.

Then, regarding the points of revision and the draft table of contents of Priority Plan, I would like to ask the secretariat to explain Document 1.

Secretariat: . Nice to meet you. I will explain based on the materials.

Please turn to page 1. I have written about the perspectives of the members toward the 2023 Priority Plan Revision, the "X" in DX, in other words, transformation and reform are very necessary, and "perspectives from the demand-side as well as the supply-side," particularly taking into account the "consideration of private sector based on collaboration with Architecture and system-to-system collaboration through APIs" at the bottom, as well as the opinions received in advance. In addition, I would like to consider these three perspectives of an "international perspective" as perspectives that will carry through the points of Priority Plan that I will explain next.

Please turn to the next page. Compared to when we had the prior consultation, points 1 to 8 overlap with, for example, the "X" of DX, the perspective of the demand side, and the perspective of the people. When we think about any of them, the "X" of DX is necessary and the perspective of the people is also necessary. In the end, it seems to cover all of them. However, when we sort them out, when we think about these things, reform is also necessary and the perspective of the people is also necessary. Therefore, the material is not very clear. I would like to think about it.

The next page will be the point. I will introduce it in two pages.

First of all, in terms of setting indicators from the perspective of the people, perhaps starting from My Number Card, we will collect and share data on users, etc., and use it as an indicator. We will collect indicators or data that will serve as a base for data-based policy decisions. We will start with My Number Card, but we would like to gradually expand other policies after consideration.

The second question is about expanding the use of My Number System, which was also mentioned by a committee member, and My Number Card, which I believe will be a so-called Public Personal Authentication. In terms of expanding the use of each of these, more than 75% of people in My Number Card have applied for it, and the infrastructure in private sector has been developed. Based on this, we would like to expand the use of what is written here, especially by as the best digital identity verification tool. My Number Card

In addition, regarding the My Number system of IDs, which uniquely identifies individuals, a law has been submitted to the National Assembly. Thank you very much for your cooperation at the public hearings. Today, the committee is voting. The bill to revise the law will expand the system from the three fields, and the scope of use will be stipulated by law. We will continue to promote My Number System.

Under 3 Potsu's "Creating a Framework for Realizing a Society Utilizing Digital Technology," the Provisional Digital Administration Study Group has created a review schedule for the 10,000 provisions of the analog regulations. We will actually follow this and implement it over the next two years, and it has been a very significant progress to follow this.

4 A system Architecture that quickly delivers convenience to the people of Pozu, a system infrastructure that supports it, or a system infrastructure premised on that. Although it is called a "public service mesh," we would like to review the system Architecture with the aim of promptly providing public services in cooperation with private services.

In addition, as stated in the fourth and subsequent lines, while keeping the overall system Architecture in mind, we would like to establish a solid foundation for Government Cloud, Government Solution Service (GSS), and standardization of local government systems.

Next page, please. Under the "Promotion of Digital Transformation in Industries, Regions, and Individual Sectors," we would like to advance further digital transformation, the "X" in digital transformation, by advancing reforms in government procurement, including semi-public sector for medical care, disaster prevention, etc., digitalization for transactions such as digital invoices, and for the future, comprehensive cooperation such as the construction of dataspaces, and digital marketplaces. In this regard, and overlapping with AI utilization, which I will explain next, we would like to enhance digital competitiveness in each industry.

In addition, I believe that it is also an important initiative to provide various necessary services using data in Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation and to expand them horizontally.

6) As you mentioned, in order to promote AI utilization and strategies, it is necessary for the government as a whole to review AI utilization policies, and to review strategies such as base registry.

The seventh is "Establishment of an International Public-Private Partnership Framework," which will be discussed at the G7 Digital and Technology Ministers' Meeting to be held this weekend in G7 Digital and Tech Ministers' Meeting and will be advanced going forward.

8 Potsu is "strengthening control tower functions and systems," and in order to actually and firmly implement the measures, it is necessary to strengthen the development capabilities of Digital Agency and the personnel of the project promotion system, strengthen cooperation with the related organizations that will support it, and strengthen the personnel and systems of Digital Agency alone, as there will be no progress. Therefore, it is necessary to actually strengthen the digital promotion system of each ministry and have each ministry work firmly on it, as well as to secure and develop digital human resources for Japan as a whole.

These are the points for the revision.

Next is the table of contents for Priority Plan on page 6. The points I just mentioned are what I believe to be particularly important and aim for in Priority Plan, which I believe will be organized in an exceptional manner. In addition, in Priority Plan, not only Digital Agency but also other ministries and agencies will make Cabinet decisions on measures that they consider important for digital matters going forward, so there will be a row of parts for the third, fourth, and fifth measures.

In addition, some parts have been revised based on the opinions of the members in advance of the previous meeting. In particular, the red part will change from last year. However, even if the table of contents remains the same, we will naturally brush up the contents and update what is necessary, so we will create a new one as a whole.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Now, I would like to hear your opinions. First of all, could you start with Mr. Mikitani, who will be leaving in the middle?

Mikitani Constituency: I'm sorry that I had to leave before my next appointment.

I think that digitalization is really important, but when I say for what purpose, I think that this is a means, not a purpose. I think that the purpose is, for example, economic growth or convenience, but it is also important that costs go down. What often happens is that there are double costs, and in the end the economy does not go up. I think that by making something incomplete, it actually becomes more inconvenient, resulting in double costs and redundancy.

In the world, I think that the evolution of AI will really progress geometrically. From the perspective of digitalization as a nation, I think it is about how much digital power we can increase. The other day, when I talked with Minister Kono, he said that it is quite difficult to secure digital human resources. Then, as for how to attract human resources, for example, if you receive a large salary, you will feel that nearly half of it will be taken away by taxes (personal income taxes and resident taxes). I think that people whose maximum tax rate will be 55% will not come to Japan. If it is compared to sports, it will be a world where there are no players but they are playing baseball, so I think that one major point is how to bring digital human resources into the country. The quality of human resources is insufficient, but the number is also insufficient.

Perhaps the biggest problem is not directly related to today's theme, but I think that countries where taxes are too high will not develop. In the last 30 years, the GDP of the United States has increased by about four times, and I think that this is also the main reason for Japan's stagnation.

Then, regarding the thorough implementation of digital principles, there is an issue that is often seen in countries, that is, OK in general but NO in particular. For example, I have been fighting against the online sales of pharmaceuticals requiring guidance. The regulation on online sales of pharmaceuticals requiring guidance, which allows an exception for digitalization, is symbolic, so I think it should be dealt with. By completely completing it digitally, we can realize online medical care and universal medical services, and reduce medical expenses, which are a heavy financial burden on the nation. I think this is one of the major points in digitalization this time.

Also, I think that KYC by My Number Card, which was mentioned in today's explanation, is a very good thing, but when it comes to the point that cards are necessary, to be honest, I don't think cards are necessary. This may be an argument that I shouldn't get into, but I think it's better to think about it because the times have changed.

Also, the identity verification by My Number Card is good, but it should be considered as one of the options in terms of convenience. If you can't do it without it, there may be some people who can't get it for various reasons. So, I think it should be used as one of the options, and as a result, you can use it because it is convenient.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much.

Mr. Mikitani will leave in the middle of the meeting, so I would like to know if the secretariat has any reaction or comment on Mr. Mikitani's discussion. What is the view of Digital Agency?

Secretariat: . Thank you very much.

We will not eliminate the card function, but we will install the Public Personal Authentication function in smartphones. This will start with Androids after the Golden Week holidays, so that you can use the Mynaportal function by clicking a button on your smartphone or use identity verification without having to hit the card each time.

However, since the identity verification must be made by credit card, which is the anchor of trust, we will make a identity verification there at least once. The starting point is now to issue a credit card, but we would like to make it possible to do as many things as possible on smartphones.

And [ah] I'm sorry about the tax system. [ah] It's going to be pretty tough here.

As for digital human resources, in fact, digital human resources have been discussed at the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation Conference, and the government as a whole will work to develop the human resources who are currently there. I would like to set a goal and firmly work on it.

Mikitani Constituency: , what's actually happening in our company is that we don't have many development bases in Japan-we're talking about who will come to a country where taxes are so high. If this problem is not solved, digitalization will not advance because digital human resources will not come. To be honest, I think that's the biggest reason.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Today, we will discuss the table of contents. I believe that the table of contents reflects the connection with the My Number system, the presence or absence of cards, and the utilization of the My Number system after the cards have become so popular, which were discussed in the previous discussion by experts.

If there are any other comments from the secretariat or the Digital TV Agency, I would like to ask you before you leave the room. Is that OK?

Mikitani Constituency: I think it's about realizing a society that utilizes digital technology, but in the end, the face-to-face principle will come back like a zombie. After a few years, when the dust has settled, it seems that this will have to be face-to-face.

Since you have made a Digital Agency, I would like you to break through it. If you do not thoroughly understand that there are no exceptions to the digital principles, as I said earlier, if both digital and analog remain, it will result in double costs, eventually increasing costs, and you will not know what you are doing. Basically, I think we are doing it to reduce costs, so please do it without exception.

Chairman Murai: I see. I think it is the cost issue you raised at the beginning, so I would like you to take it seriously. Thank you very much.

Mikitani Constituency: Thank you very much. Good-bye.

(Member Mikitani leaves room)

Chairman Murai: Then, we have received the opinion in Document 2 from Member Muraoka, who is absent today. Could the secretariat introduce it to us?

Secretariat: In Document 2, we received three opinions from Yamaguchi Gov. Muraoka.

The first is about the transition of local governments to standard compliance system using the Government Cloud. It is necessary to make efforts to ensure that all local governments will be able to make the transition by fiscal 2025. I would like you to create the necessary conditions for that. In particular, I would like you to consider the revision of the digital infrastructure so that the required amount will be surely supported by the Priority Plan Reform Support Subsidy so that there will be no financial burden.

Also, in relation to My Number Card, the application rate is 76.8%, and it has entered the stage of utilization. In Yamaguchi prefecture, it is over 80%, and it is planned to be utilized in various ways. Therefore, in the revision of Priority Plan, Digital Agency, as the control tower, will take the lead in cooperation with related ministries and agencies to promote initiatives that citizens can feel further improvement of convenience. Please include the expansion of initiatives utilizing My Number Card in local governments and the strengthening of support for local governments by grants for the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation, etc. for this purpose.

Lastly, I would like to ask about AI. I expect that new services and value will be created with leading-edge generative AI. I would like to ask three questions. First, it is necessary to fully utilize AI in the administrative field. Second, there are various issues regarding the utilization of ICT in Priority Plan at present. Third, I would like to ask you to clearly state the direction of future initiatives, including the formulation of guidelines for its utilization.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

I would like to continue to hear the opinions of the other members, so I would like to hear from anyone who raises their hand as usual.

Mr. Ito, please.

Prof. Itoh: , I would like to go into the details, not the table of contents, but I wanted to respond to Mr. Mikitani a little while ago. This may not be on purpose, but I think the person who created it did it on purpose, but My Number Card is actually a really good digital wallet, and at the Ethereum hackathon last week, we showed Japanese developers using My Number Card to authenticate and sign their Web3.0 wallets. Now, Ethereum has also proposed a new authentication mechanism called Account Abstraction, so even if you don't have an account in My Number Card, you can get NFTs, and My Number Card itself can be a digital wallet. This can be done right away with a tap on a mobile phone, so the content is actually quite good as an authentication system.

So the nice thing about My Number Card is that if you remove the My Number Card and issue it from one more country, the certificate authority can check that it is properly connected. So today, if you remove the passphrase with Meta Mask or something, you lose all your money. But as long as you design a wallet that believes in the Japanese country, the country can recover it. In fact, Web3.0 and My Number Card are a great match. So you can design that people who have My Number Card already have Web3.0 wallets.

Therefore, I think it is a great opportunity to spread My Number Card to people who want to do Web3.0. There are various details such as the design and whether the government will decide the function of the algorithm to rewrite the one to-one correspondence between the public key of My Number and the Ethereum wallet or the private sector will decide it. It was very good. I think that there were many people in the Web3.0 community a few years ago who would say what is the use of national IDs for authentication. But now that everyone has become more practical and the Ethereum community has taken it more positively than expected, it is a great opportunity. If we think in that direction, it is a problem that various personal information is printed on My Number Card itself, and My Number Card now has APIs that you can see the photos and contents by holding it over. Therefore, in the medium to long term, My Number Card itself will use a digital wallet that does not contain anything, a wallet like the current Ledger, and if you do so, I think that the various risks of walking with cards will disappear.

QR codes are also QR codes for My Number, so if someone takes a picture of it, the My Number will be taken, so I think it is possible to reconsider what is actually printed and use My Number Card as a wallet. I understand what Mr. Mikitani is saying, but I think it is actually a very valuable hardware design if the purpose is shifted a little, so I think it should be considered somewhere.

I'm sorry for the small details.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much. I think this is a very important point.

Then, Ikeda-san, can I ask you to do it?

H. Ikeda: With regard to Hello. I am IKEDA. Nice to meet you.

Although there have been various discussions, I would like to make four major points.

The first point is that although a year has passed since the formulation of the Priority Plan Digital Policy, I am beginning to feel that digital penetration into society has taken place in just one year, and I would like to thank the people of Digital Agency for their efforts. We, the people of Japan, are beginning to recognize that digital is an important direction for Japan, but on the other hand, there are still some areas where we have not made much progress in creating areas that people find convenient. In that sense, coordination between ministries and agencies and collaboration among industry, academia, and government are naturally necessary, but Digital Agency's roles as a control tower will become increasingly important, so I would like to ask for your support.

In particular, I believe it is of course important to strengthen the system of Digital Agency, so I would appreciate it if we, the local governments, would actively strengthen the system.

In addition, the local government has dispatched personnel to Digital Agency, and one person from this city has been dispatched to Digital Agency. I believe this will lead to the development of digital human resources and the development of digital human resources among the few digital human resources in the local area. I believe it will be one of the powerful channels that can be shared between the national government and the city. I would be very grateful if you would continue to open your doors in Digital Agency.

The second point is that I was not able to attend the previous pre-meeting, but when our secretariat was allowed to attend, Professor Wakamiya pointed out that the culture of mailing and seals at the government office had not changed, and I reported that. I think that the response varies depending on the local government, but in this city, we have set a policy of making all administrative procedures online in principle, and now more than 300 procedures are online, so we would like to firmly advance this.

In addition, the other day, Digital Agency made an effort to implement an online payment function for online applications in Mynaportal, and we have just launched the service with this city as the first user. Since it is an office work with many requests from residents outside the city, we believe that online applications and payments have led to improved services. As a local government, we would like to accumulate small efforts from the perspective of consumers to improve the convenience of citizens.

The third question is, as online payment became possible, we asked the vendor of the system for managing requests for family registers and other documents to change the wording so that online payment can be made. However, they replied that they could not do so because they did not have the resources to respond to standardization. As a result, we are forced to take analog measures such as affixing rubber stamps. There are some distorted parts because of the rapid progress in digitalization, but I believe it is necessary for us to carefully understand the situation so that such hindrance does not occur.

Lastly, regarding generative AI that utilizes large-scale language models, which is the point of this revision, we have high expectations that there is great potential for administrative use. In particular, we believe that rules need to be established for handling sensitive data for administrative use. Yesterday, I also heard the news that the relevant ministries and agencies held their first meeting. However, we, the local governments, have said that it is difficult to understand the ministries and agencies with jurisdiction. Therefore, I would be very grateful if Digital Agency could take the lead and show us the framework and schedule of the review.

That's all from me. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Ikeda-san, I would like to ask you one question. In the current relationship between Digital Agency or the central government and local governments, such as the GtoG, this system, for example, the rubber stamp, is something that local governments will notice somewhere. At that time, it will be possible to smoothly communicate it, and from the Digi Agency's side, it will lead to taking action for improvement, which is the process of the GtoG. I think it is related to Mr. Mikitani's story about double costs, which I mentioned earlier. Do you feel that there is a problem with that?

H. Ikeda: With regard to City, for example, when something like that happens, since our employees are also in Digital Agency, I think that there will be more direct cooperation between employees themselves or between employees of this city and the people of Digital Agency compared to other municipalities, and I think that this city will be much faster than other municipalities in communicating such events and linking them to improvements. On the other hand, within the current framework, for example, in the case of the city, in the process of the Japan Association of City Mayors taking up such issues, there are some procedural aspects, and it may be a little slow to convey them with a sense of speed. We are working to improve those aspects, but in our case, we are using both of them, and we are working with two tools, one is the process of raising issues of the city as a whole to the government, and the other is to directly communicate individual specific areas and have people make improvements.

If you think of this as a cost, I feel that it is a bit of a cost. However, at present, Miyakonojo has the direct tools I mentioned earlier, so I personally do not feel that much.

Chairman Murai: I see. Thank you very much.

The perspective of the people is a major theme this time, so I think local governments will be more aware of it. I think it is important to have a system, contact points and paths that will lead to DX measures fairly smoothly and speedily, so I would like you to think about it in the direction that it will proceed well. Thank you very much.

Then, Mr. Ota, please go ahead.

Mr. Ohta: I am Mr. Ohta , and I have the floor to speak.

Among the eight key areas, I have long been proposing the number one indicator from the perspective of the people, and I think it is very good that this indicator has been included. As I have been saying, as a result of the "X" in digital transformation, administrative services and semi-public sector's medical, nursing care, and education services will improve, so I think it is better to properly capture the level of satisfaction. If we look at the level of satisfaction by area, for example, tax payments can be easily made using e-Tax and My Number Card on smartphones, so the level of satisfaction will have changed and increased. Unfortunately, it has not changed. I would like you to take this opportunity to do it. As I said, the Tokyo Metropolitan Government is already conducting fixed-point observations, and in the form of Shin Tosei, we will hold up the "X" in structural reforms, and if you look at the website Shin Tosei, it will be a dashboard that is close to the outcome, so you can see whether "X" is really happening and whether we are approaching the goal. In the case of Digital Agency, the dashboard only writes the number of My Number cards and the number of public money receiving account, so I would like you to write on the dashboard what is close to the outcome and to present the keys that lead to that outcome.

For example, if Attached Table 2 is changed due to the revision of the My Number Act, information sharing, which took three years, will be completed within one year. Therefore, I would like you to put those positive outcomes that lead to the improvement of administrative services at the forefront so that the people can see the progress of what is happening in an easy-to-understand manner. I would like you to do this.

As for the second point, as I briefly mentioned earlier, in comparison with the Government Digital Service in the UK, I have been interviewed while doing something like a case study at a university, but first of all, the Digi Agency is attracting attention from outside. I think this is a good thing, but clearly compared to GDS or ATF or UGDS in the US, it is seen from outside that there is too much work being done for the number of people, so when we discuss such a plan, we only add up what to do, so when we think about resources to really finish, we always check from the perspective of how far we can finish. Simply speaking, I think it is good to look at the number of projects being run, but from what I have heard, I think it is running at 200. I think it depends on the size of the project, but I think it is probably impossible.

Therefore, we need to have some third party organization check whether or not the scope of the plan is properly completed. Even though we have done good things and already achieved results, we are under pressure to do one thing and do another. We are only adding up. I am very concerned about this. The second point is that I want you to narrow the scope properly and produce excellent results, as Mynaportal and others have also produced results.

The third point is an individual one. This is Document 1-6, which is being shown now. The AI utilization policies were created four years ago. I think it was created in Cabinet Office as a human-centered go-and-go approach, and in Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications as well, but it is my understanding that it has not been used at all or updated at all. Looking back on why that was the case, since this is an important issue, I would like you to proceed with it.

My understanding is that the members are too domestic and the cause is too all-around. I think we need to sort out the Japanese way of thinking. For example, rather than the United States and other countries where it is easy to understand the overseas, centered on Japanese use cases, we are making friends that are unique to Japan-for example, we are doing G20 in India-and I think it is clear that Indiahas a unifying force. We also have a very good relationship with Japan, so I think it would be better if you do it from such a strategic perspective the next time you do it. I think it was created four years ago over a long period of time, and I think it has been very unsuccessful, so I think this time it should be done based on that.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: . I think this also includes a very important factor. Complaints tend to gather, but I think it is quite rare for the government to be praised in this country. I have exactly the same experience as Ota-san in two respects. One is that we have had approaches to digital transformation from outside and have been highly evaluated several times. The other is that it is Japan that has proposed the current AI strategies on the international stage from an early stage. We are talking about whether Japan has been doing quite good things from the beginning and what has become of it now. If you ask me whether it has been developing smoothly since then, that may be a sore point, but there are some parts that are not evaluated from the domestic point of view while the efforts are evaluated from the foreign point of view.

To put it the other way around, when I mention that I am valued by people overseas, I am told by the Japanese press that I don't hear anything about that. I feel that there is something to be devised here. In any case, it is an objective evaluation, and in a sense, there may be the people who are not good at praising and the government offices who are not good at boasting. Of course, there is no need to lie or stretch ourselves, but I think it is better to think carefully and strategically about disseminating information for correct understanding. I think that this is important because it will lead to a positive attitude of self-confidence, courage and revitalization of industry. Thank you very much.

Wakamiya-san, please.

Wakamiya, Member: I am Wakamiya . Pleased to meet you.

First of all, I said that government offices are still conducting seal administration, but there is one reason for this. Currently, government offices are also outsourcing. However, since it is a place that is outsourcing, it is probably a well-established company that is undertaking it, but it does not necessarily mean that it is digital transformation. If so, it will be done according to the rules of the outsourcing company, and we will be told that My Number Card is not acceptable and that residence certificates are acceptable.

Actually, last year when I visited you on Digital Day, I was asked to pay the transportation expenses, but I was told that I couldn't do it in My Number Card either. But since you are a Wakamiya-san, you can do it in identity verification, so it's okay, but that's a separate matter. There are many companies that outsource, so that's why I came up with this idea. I want you to first understand this.

The most important point is to leave no one behind. There are many things that I myself did not notice. First of all, I am 88 years old. When I wanted to change my model in my 80s, I was told that I had to come with my family. If I couldn't do that, I went to another place. But all four companies are the same. They seem to have some kind of internal agreement.

In my case, I was persistent and said that I was working on the Digital Agency, but that was not a reason. The manager made a special arrangement for me, but when I asked later, I was told that there are many things that are not allowed if you are 65 years old or older when you apply online. I think there are many other things that I don't notice or that you don't notice. Therefore, I think it is necessary to conduct a fact-finding survey once.

As for the opinions of such people, in short, since they cannot use the online system, there is a way to use a web questionnaire. When I do it overseas, such as in Estonia, I always ask my family to type it online on their behalf. I think it is necessary to check the reasons why they are left behind.

Another thing that will become very important in Japan in the future is that 10% of the people are over 80 years old, and a considerable number of them have hearing loss. They have difficulty hearing, or are unable to hear. This will be a major source of instability in people's lives. This is also true in emergency situations. For example, when there is a sudden accident at a station, the only way to tell what the situation is is through audio. So we, the hearing impaired, are really in trouble. Therefore, I think that measures for the hearing impaired are necessary for all the people who tend to be left behind in the future.

There is one more thing. Lastly, I think that partnerships and cooperative relationships with financial institutions are extremely important. When I asked Mr. Hendrik, former President of Estonia, what was the main reason for his country's e-government, he said that he had partnered with financial institutions. Financial institutions are now moving more and more online in the cashless era, and he said that he had taken advantage of that. Then, when I went to Denmark last year, I asked in Digital Agency, Denmark, and of course, he said that he had collaborated closely with financial institutions, and in fact, he heard that the Japanese Bankers Association had borne half of the cost of upgrading the system in the fall of the year before last. Therefore, I think that partnerships with financial institutions will become a very important factor in the future.

That's all. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much. I think this was also a valuable opinion.

Regarding the first point, which is related to outsourcing, I think the reason why it is difficult to do "X" is that the system, which is always satisfied with the outsourcing mechanism, is a brake in this area. In this area, for example, although I should not name it too much, I think it is an example of an area in which it is very comfortable to outsource to a very customized company in the medical field, as you pointed out earlier, and therefore "X" does not progress.

In that regard, I think that if we narrow down the areas in which outsourcing is very comfortable, for example, medical and health care, which are close to such areas, and in some cases, schools, which are also close to such areas, if we narrow it down to areas where we can expect clear effects, we can eliminate the cause of the stagnation due to outsourcing. In that sense, the Digital TV Agency says quasi-public areas, so I think that we can check and promote such areas.

Another very important point is the issue of accessibility, which has been said that no one will be left behind since the establishment of the Digital TV Agency. It is not only that no one can use computers or smartphones, but we must look at it from the perspective of whether or not the accessibility to more digital-based services can benefit from it. As Mr. Ota mentioned earlier, this is also about improving this country by gathering what we have noticed. In a sense, we will start by preparing a channel or system so that 100 million people can say what they have noticed. Otherwise, if we look at the supply side, we may not be able to scale. In any case, you pointed out accessibility itself, and I think it is very important, so I would like you to continue to consider it. Thank you very much.

Well, Mr. Noda, thank you for waiting.

Y. , thank you very much for your kind attention. I would like to make two points.

The first point is related to the indicators that Ota-san mentioned earlier. I think it is a very good direction to create indicators from the perspective of the people. However, as for how to set indicators, I think it is desirable that they are in line with the six visions of the society we are aiming for. As long as we have stipulated the six visions of growth strategy, digitalization in semi-public sector, regional revitalization, a society in which no one is left behind, development of digital human resources, and International Strategy, I think it would be good if we could clarify what the specific goals are for each of them, manage the progress, and show the people in an easy-to-understand manner how far each field has progressed and how little has progressed. For example, as Mr. Mikitani first mentioned about pharmaceuticals, if efforts in the medical field have not progressed yet, I think it would be good if we could further devise indicators that would lead to constructive discussions on what the reasons are and what to do in the future, and lead to further actions. I think this will make it easier for the people to understand how to move forward toward the society we are aiming for.

The second point is about the description of the "development of digital industry" in the "digitalization of industry" in the fifth four points that you added to the table of contents. Beyond the development of digital industry itself, I think that "digital" can also be positioned as an enabler for creating new industries. It is important to use digital rather than turning it into a purpose to create new growth industries, companies, and startups. I think it is very important to look at how to promote digitalization to create industries.

As far as I can tell from the table of contents, the focus seems to be on supporting the digitalization of existing industries, such as creating digital industries, transforming existing businesses, and supporting the digitalization of small and medium-sized enterprises. Rather, I think it would be better if the Digital Agency could play a control role in creating new industries with digital as enablers.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much.

Regarding the digitalization of industry, I think you said two things, one is the transformation of existing industries, and the other is the creation of new industries. It may be a question of which is the fostering of digital industries, and where the priorities should be. What are your thoughts on this? There are various ways of thinking about this.

Y. : As I mentioned earlier, I believe that it is important to promote the creation of new industries using digital technologies. Of course, the digitalization of existing industries and the digitalization of government are also important. However, just as growth strategies are the first goal of the society we aim for, it is essential to create new industries and start-ups in order for the country to grow in the future. For example, I think that there are not many enablers such as green tech and circular tech that use digital technologies to create new industries. I would like to see the perspective of the creation of new industries be added, not just the development of digital industries.

Chairman Murai: I see.

In other words, from the perspective of other industries, fostering a new digital industry tends to mean further empowering the digital industry that is currently in charge, so in order to incorporate the current opinions, it may be better to include the nuance of a little enabler in the table of contents.

Secretariat: Actually, last year, "fostering digital industry" was included in the strategies. However, since it is closer to the measures, I moved it to Chapter 5. There, it is said that we should use cloud services and IT startups to create new companies and industries that create various added values. I would like to understand the purpose of what the members have just said.

Chairman Murai: tournament is good, but the nuance of what you said is a little different from the existing digital industry or the so-called orthodox IT industry, so I thought it would be good to include that meaning a little better. Thank you.

(KOSHIZUKA MEMBERS ADMITTED)

Chairman Murai: Then, Mr. Koshizuka, who was said to be in the second half, although it is sudden, I think you have seen it in advance, so may I have your opinion?

Member: Thank you,

I do not know the current status of the discussion, but what I would like to talk about in the revision of the strategies that I have seen before is the data-based strategies. Even before the Digital Agency, data-based strategies were extremely important, and this time, the DFFT was also discussed in the G7. In that sense, data-based strategies have been established and implemented in Japan from an early stage. However, at the time of the preliminary meeting, I briefly mentioned that there are areas in which data-based strategies have not progressed beyond the general remarks. In that sense, I would like to focus on specific strategies in the future, including international strategies. In some domestic areas, especially in green and supply chain areas such as the calculation of CO2 emissions, data-based platforms are not far away, and there are areas that will soon be in a very competitive situation. I would like to see strategies focus on these areas so that we can move forward firmly.

Another point is that the development of industry has been introduced here. I think this is very important. Recently, we have been supporting venture companies and start-ups, and I think this is very important. In particular, if you are a data provider like me, there are some areas in industry that start-ups cannot do anything about, such as infrastructure and global issues. The development of industry in these areas is difficult, but I think we need to consider it at the same time.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Before Mr. Koshizuka came, as Mr. Ohta mentioned, there is ChatGPT now, and I think it is a kind of regression of natural-language AI. In any case, the handling of digital data is the most fundamental part of AI. The word "AI" is included in data strategy this time as well, and I think it is rapidly shifting to a data-sensitive situation in a sense. How do you think the relationship between this and AI strategy should be expressed?

Member: , First of all, the origin of generative AI comes from digital data, so in this digital data strategy, I think it is important to properly match the way of thinking and governance of AI up to now with what generative data such as ChatGPT is doing now, which is becoming quite visible in personal information.

However, I personally think that it would be desirable for this kind of advanced technology to be developed in a way that does not hinder the development of technology as much as possible.

Second, from a data perspective, we are gaining various knowledge by eating up data. Generative AI is generative, so AI itself will probably generate data in the future. When we generate a huge amount of data and content in the future, I think we will probably be forced to fundamentally change the concept of authorship and copyright. In terms of data governance and rulemaking, I think it will have a huge impact on the fundamentals.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

I agree with you, and I think that we have created a climate in which it is easier to understand the essential significance of data-strategy. In that sense, I think it would be good if data-strategy and AI were made a little more specific and easier to understand and accepted. Before Ms. Koshizuka came here, the Japanese government had been discussing this for quite some time, and about two years ago, it should have been quite a bit ahead, but there are many talks about what's going on here and there, so I think this could be an opportunity to regain the original pace. Thank you very much.

Member: That's right. Therefore, there are some things that I would like you to do in the Digi Agency. However, we, the private sector, are also doing a lot of data, so we would like to promote these things together with Japan as a whole. I would like to promote various things together.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

I have listened to all the opinions of the committee members. If there is anything I would like to say after I have listened to all of them, I would like anyone to make a statement. Is that all right?

In that case, that will be all for the discussion on this agenda item. As we received very important points again today, I hope you will take them seriously and continue to advance the consideration of Priority Plan.

This is the end of my discussion with you. I would like to ask Mr. Vice-Minister for Digital Transformation, Chief Officer of Digital Agency, State Minister for Foreign Affairs, and you, Minister for Foreign Affairs, to comment on today's discussion. May I begin with Mr. Asanuma?

Mr. Asanuma, Vice-Minister for Digital Transformation, Chief Officer of Digital Agency: Everyone in , thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with me today.

Based on the opinions you gave me today, I would like to review and brush up the Priority Plan again. I think you have been deepening the contents you have been giving me. So, while proceeding based on the contents you gave me today, I also received ideas and opinions from Mr. Joi Ito from a new perspective. Personally, I think this is one point that we can consider in the project along with the Priority Plan.

I would like to continue to receive your opinions and your support as we move forward in Digital Agency, and I think that I am doing this very strongly. I would like to have the staff members praise me, but I don't mind being a bit strict with the executives. It is said that there are 100 or 200 projects, but I want to move forward firmly and firmly support the progress of digitalization as a whole. I look forward to your continued support.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Then, State Minister Okushi, can I have your comments?

State Minister for Digital Transformation Okushi: Thank you all for a lively discussion today.

It was pointed out that there are various aspects, and there was a discussion on the satisfaction level of indicators from the perspective of the people. I think that these aspects could be a little more interactive, and I would like to utilize that perspective. In addition, since we are currently promoting the use of My Number Card by the private sector, I hope to be able to enter new fields while enhancing convenience.

I would like to continue to expand the possibilities in various ways, so I look forward to your guidance and opinions. Thank you very much for today.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much.

Then how about Minister Kono?

Mr. Kono, Minister for Digital Transformation,: Thank you, Thank you,

There are 3,500 people in Digital Agency, which has a population of 5.5 million, while there are 800 people in Japan's Digital Agency, which currently has a population of 100000002, and we are working to increase that number to 1,000 this year. However, due to salary issues, we have reached the limit of asking people from the private sector to work in Digital Agency two to three days a week. We need to consider what to do with the resources in Digital Agency, and if we do not narrow down what we can do to match the resources, we will not be able to do what we cannot do. Therefore, I think we need to firmly consider strategies that follow the resources.

Having said that, under the leadership of Vice-Minister for Digital Transformation, Chief Officer of Digital Agency, we have started to manufacture various items in-house. If we manufacture them in-house, we will be able to control the schedule and respond quickly if something happens. I believe that we need to consider producing important items in-house in Digital Agency, though not all of them.

In the case of ChatGPT, if you listen to it well, it will write code for you and you will be able to get something of it, so I think we need to think about how much we can use AI.

When I talk with various ministries and agencies, I often hear that we need to revise the law in the first year, get a budget in the second year, and develop it in the third year, so three years later. I think we need to do something about this, so I would like to consider how we can do it with a sense of speed in the future.
We look forward to your continued support and encouragement. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much.

A long time ago, there was a song called "One Week," which reminded me of burning a bath on Monday and taking a bath on Tuesday. However, the Minister stated that it would not be possible at that pace.

After listening to what the Senior Vice-Ministers, Ministers and Advisors have just said, is there anyone who would like to say something that remains to be said? Are you all right?

Thank you,

Then, please tell me what the office will tell us.

Secretariat: Thank you very much.

The meeting materials that were discussed in public today will also be made available on the Digital Agency website. The minutes will also be made available as soon as possible after confirmation by all members.

That's all I have to tell you.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much.

Then, I would like to close today's meeting by asking for your continued cooperation in the process within Digi Agency in Priority Plan.

Now, with this, I would like to close the 7th "Digital Society Concept Conference." Thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to have a very enthusiastic discussion.