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2023 (2023) Third Expert Meeting for Policy Evaluation and Public Works Review [Public process]

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Overview

Material

Related Documents

The 2023 Policy Evaluation and Public Administration Project Review Report (pages 5 to 8) was prepared based on comments from experts in the public disclosure process. 2023
For details, please check the 4th Policy Evaluation and Administration Project Review Expert Meeting .

Meeting Video

Minutes

MORI Director: Thank you, Then, we will hold the fiscal 2023 "Digital Agency Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review (Public Process)".
Today's presenter is Digital Agency Director no Mori.
By the way, today's meeting will be held using a web conference system. First of all, to kick off the meeting, I would like to have a greeting from Director-General, Tomiyasu Digital Agency Strategic Planning Group. Thank you very much.

Director-General Tomiyasu: .
I would like to express my sincere appreciation to the distinguished experts for their continued support. Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today.
In today's public disclosure process, from among the projects selected in March this year as projects to be inspected by experts, discussions will be held on the "Government-wide website," which is of great interest to the public. This project was launched from the perspective of making websites that had been created individually by each ministry and agency easier to use, better, and easier to understand from the perspective of the public.
In that sense, it is very important to improve the effectiveness of policy. I would be grateful if experts would actively discuss how to improve the quality of this project from the perspective of whether or not the policy objectives, setting of goals, and approach are appropriate. Thank you very much.
I look forward to frank discussions with you.

MORI Director: Thank you, .
I would now like to introduce the external experts attending today. A total of four external experts, two dedicated to Digital Agency and two dedicated to the Secretariat of the Cabinet Secretariat Administrative Reform Promotion Office, attended today's open process.
First, I would like to introduce Professor Ichiro Sato of the Department of Information Society and Society at the National Institute of Informatics, who is participating with us and also serves as the chair of the Digital Agency Expert Panel on Policy Evaluation and Public Administration Review. Professor Sato, as the chair, will facilitate the discussion, and at the end, will coordinate the opinions.
Next, we have invited external experts to participate via a web conference system.
First of all, Ms. Naoko Iwasaki, President of the NPO International CIO Society.

Mr. IWASAKI ( .
Next is Ms. Yuka Shimada, co-founder and CEO of YeeY Inc.

Dr. Shimada: .

MORI Director: Thank you, Last but not least, Mr. Shigeyuki Mito, partner attorney at TMI Associates.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. .

MORI Director: Thank you, I would like to welcome these four external experts today.
Next, I would like to explain today's proceedings. First, the person in charge of the project will explain the project. After that, I would like to receive frank opinions and questions about the project from the committee members. After that, we will make an announcement about 5 minutes before the end of the discussion, so please give the final comments of each committee member. After that, on behalf of the committee members, I would like Chairman Sato to compile the comments, and after receiving the approval of the committee members, I would like to finalize it.
In addition, to prevent noise, the microphone is usually turned off. When you make a statement, please raise your hand or press the raise button on the system, and turn on the microphone when you are nominated by the chairperson. When you have finished your statement, please turn your microphone back off.
From here on, the discussion will be conducted by external experts, so I will ask Chairman Sato to proceed. Then, Chairman Sato, please.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada National Institute of Informatics. I look forward to working with you today.
At the beginning, since this is a public process, I would like to briefly explain the background.
There are two types of evaluations of government ministries and agencies: the so-called Administrative Project Review led by the Secretariat of the Administrative Reform Promotion Office in Cabinet Secretariat, and the Advisory Panel on Policy Evaluation established in each government ministry and agency based on the Policy Evaluation Law. However, the two evaluations are imposing a burden on the division in charge in each government ministry and agency. Each government ministry and agency are trying various ways to reduce the burden through trial and error. In Digital Agency, the Advisory Panel on Administrative Project Review and Policy Evaluation have been integrated, and this was the third evaluation conducted this fiscal year.
In the past two meetings this fiscal year, we did not make a so-called announcement, and unlike this live-streaming event, we did not make an announcement. However, the minutes and other materials are made public, so please refer to them.
If I may add one more thing before the deliberation, it is the selection of eligible projects. Regarding the selection this time, I believe it was before March of this year, but we selected four systems that would be eligible before the next system renewal, the so-called system renewal. Therefore, in other words, regarding systems that are already in operation, it is not always possible to reflect what has been pointed out here, so I would like to say that we are targeting those before the renewal. We selected four, and today, we will mainly deliberate on one of them. After this, after receiving an explanation from the person in charge, I would like to proceed with the process of receiving questions and comments from each member.
Then, are the people in charge of the project and Hara Section ready? Are they all right?
In that case, could you go ahead and explain it to me? Thank you.

Director, Miyanishi: . Nice to meet you.
Then, I will explain one by one according to the document.
Please turn over a page, and I will explain in this flow today.
Next, please. First of all, as for the purpose of the policy, as described here, each ministry and agency is currently developing their websites. However, from the users' point of view, the design of the website differs from ministry to ministry, and the ease of access to information also differs. In addition, there are some websites that have not been sufficiently considered for accessibility for people with various disabilities.
On the other hand, the person in charge at each ministry and agency who operates the system does not necessarily have specialized knowledge of the website in the development and operation of such a system. In addition, there is a problem that know-how is not sufficiently shared because each ministry and agency develops and operates it independently.
Up until now, Digital Agency has been promoting verification test with the aim of creating a unified website. However, rather than creating an integrated website, we believe it is more important to improve convenience so that various users, including those with disabilities, can find the information they need, to reduce necessary costs at each ministry and agency, and to take necessary measures to reduce the burden on those in charge, and we are currently conducting our work while slightly changing the composition.
Please show me the next slide. It is a goal setting. As for the current status of the websites of each ministry and agency, each ministry and agency is building websites in accordance with certain standards, such as website guidebooks, but information cannot be accessed smoothly, and people with disabilities cannot access necessary information. For these reasons, this website guidebook alone is not sufficient.
If information is not provided correctly to the public, it will not be able to ensure sufficient reliability from the perspective of future digital transformation. Therefore, we will consider what is required of us. First, we will build a prototype Digital Agency website and accumulate know-how on usability and accessibility by continuously improving it. By sharing these with each ministry and agency, we have come to the conclusion that we should implement initiatives to improve the usability of the website and reduce the operational burden, involving each ministry and agency.
I would like to ask you to do the following. To outline the approach so far, first of all, we started with the construction of an alpha version of a design system that defines typography that is easy for anyone to access, whether text that is visually appealing and easy to read as information is placed, fonts, etc., and a CMS that is a function to manage content in the core part of the website. We then built the Digital Agency website in fiscal 2022 and verified its effectiveness.
In addition, we have used Digital Agency's CMS to build the newly established Children and Families Agency website and archive the CIO portal. Based on this, we are now at the stage of assessing future deployment methods.
Next, please. Regarding the development of standardization and integration, for example, in the development of the system, it was considered that all of the infrastructure, CMS, development and operation would be carried out in Digital Agency. In addition, as for the development of practice, it was considered to share guidebooks, parts, and examples.
Please move on to the next slide. First of all, what we did on the Digital Agency website.
Next, please. As I said earlier, we have just made a verification test on the Digital Agency website. There are various aspects, including cost, but we are working from the perspectives of accessibility, design system, and usability, so I will explain them one by one.
Next, please. First, from the perspective of ensuring the reusability and versatility of data. We conducted a trial from the perspective of increasing the reusability of data by separating the data itself, which is the content of the website, and reducing the cost of deploying it in multiple locations by using open source software.
Next, please. This is a guarantee for accessibility. In terms of accessibility, we are building a website from the viewpoint of how to make it easier for people with disabilities to access information, such as by responding to color vision characteristics and voice reading software. This is being done by another team in Digital Agency, and we are making use of the results of our research on design and accessibility.
Next, please. For example, the approach to accessibility is like this.
Next, please. As for the design system, just like the previous one, Digital Agency is opening it to the public and is working on it.
Please tell us about the following. In this way, various findings are published by Digital Agency, and we have been working to utilize them as Digital Agency's website.
Next, please. This is an effort related to usability improvement. First, by introducing a access analysis function, we analyzed users' behavior on the website. Then, based on that, we made improvements, and after the improvements, we made improvements based on the trends of new users. This is a cycle we are working on.
For example, the results of a access analysis show that the Digital Agency website is accessed overwhelmingly from smartphones rather than from personal computers. In addition, when accessing the Digital Agency website from smartphones, it has been revealed that there are many cases in which users do not search the site after accessing it, but instead perform a keyword search using an external search site, and then, after viewing the necessary information on the corresponding page reached by the link from the result, they leave the site.
Furthermore, it has been found that pages frequently accessed by, for example, government officials or local government officials are often accessed from computers during the daytime on weekdays, and pages visited by many individuals are relatively evenly accessed from smartphones, including on Saturdays and Sundays. Based on this trend, we have made an improvement by creating a user-specific menu on the top page.
Please tell us about the next step. This is about other initiatives. For the construction of the Children and Families Agency website that I explained earlier, we worked on it by applying Digital Agency's CMS to Children and Families Agency. As a result, we were able to reduce development costs and resources required for the next stage of procurement. However, as I mentioned as an issue, it was not necessarily an easy task to accomplish.
Next, please. As part of our efforts to archive old data, we are promoting the archiving of the contents of the CIO portal site. This is because we have recreated the website on the CMS as a collection of static HTML and published it at the same URL as before, so that users can access it as before and we have also been able to reduce the cost of operation.
I would like to ask you the following. As a result of these efforts, first of all, the method of accessing the website has changed, and it is necessary to build a website based on this situation. In addition, a certain amount of resources are required for Digital Agency to participate in the construction of the websites of other ministries and agencies, and although the requirements for the websites of ministries and agencies vary, it has been revealed that the feasibility is not necessarily high under such circumstances.
Next, please. As for future efforts, we have come to the conclusion that in fiscal 2023, we need to focus our work on the development of practices learned from the improvement of the Digital Agency website.
Specifically, what should be done to create a website that is not only easy to use for users but also easy to use for employees of each ministry and agency? By building a community, we will make efforts to solve problems by sharing methods of how to create websites that are easy to access by the government as a whole and how to realize ease of access so that government information can be properly delivered to people who need it.
Next, please. This is the same as the previous slide, but as stated in "Fiscal 2023" on the upper right, we would like to focus on the development of practice as our future business. We would appreciate your guidance.
That's all.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , Thank you very much for your thorough explanation.
We have discussed this matter twice in the past meetings of this council. As was the case with the other three projects, the people in charge of each project in Digital Agency gave very careful explanations, and we also answered questions and comments from the members very accurately and carefully. I believe that we have also made considerable progress in understanding this matter.
However, since this is a public process, it is inevitable that there will be some overlap with the previous discussion. From the perspective of those who are listening to the live stream today, I think there will be some areas where the previous discussion is not visible, so I would like to discuss in a way that allows some overlap.
Regarding the flow of discussions, as in the previous meeting and the one before that, we have prepared a framework for deliberations, and I would like you to discuss the policy objectives, goal setting, approach, stakeholders, system, and other matters. However, as each of these matters relates to each other, it is not necessarily in line with this, so I think it would be better to receive your frank opinions.
Then, I would like to hear the opinions of each member from the point of the policy purpose. What do you think?
Mr. Shimada, please.

Dr. Shimada: , thank you very much for your kind explanation.
This time, if you have organized the five points, and if my questions and comments are not limited to the policy objectives, I would like you to tell me where necessary. However, I would like to reconfirm or sort out one point in my mind, which is that I would like to remind you that the purpose of building a common government website, which you have set up this time, is only to be shared properly, and not to become the purpose of having to do it.
I believe that this initiative to make the websites of all Ministries and Agencies more user-friendly is extremely necessary for the people of Japan as well as an important project. For this reason, I believe that if we can better understand what would make this project a great success, we will be able to see more clearly that we are working towards this goal.
As is often the case, people tend to focus on what they can't do and leave it as it is. Instead, I hope that the ministries and agencies will have a common understanding and purpose of doing such a wonderful thing. First of all, I would like to convey this as an opinion. Therefore, I understand the policy objectives very well. Thank you very much.
That's all.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada I would like to ask Mr. Miyanishi to respond to this question. Before answering, I would like to make a follow-up comment. In the first and second meetings, we made various suggestions. What became very clear was whether it was essential for the government to create a unified website. There was considerable debate on this issue. If anything, the policy direction changed in the form of support for improvement of the websites of each ministry and agency.
The background is that the information provided by each ministry and agency is different, and the people who use it are different, so I have discussed so far on the premise that it is not necessarily necessary to unify it. Including that, do you have any opinion on what Director Miyanishi, who is in charge, pointed out?

Director, Miyanishi: .
First of all, there is the word "unification" in the outline of the measures. The Digital Agency Government also considered whether creating the same website would make it easier for users to access, while taking into account the discussions we had here. As the information handled on each ministry's website is different and the users are different, it may be necessary to make each ministry's website easier to view. Based on the points you pointed out, in the "Priority Plan Government towards the Realization of a Digital Society" approved by the Cabinet in June this year, we shifted the focus of our efforts from the direction of standardizing and unifying government websites to the direction of supporting the improvement of the ability to disseminate government websites. We are now moving forward with efforts to ensure that all ministries and agencies can work on how to make information easier to see for as many people as possible, even when the information is different and the users are different. For example, it is easier for people with disabilities to access various information in an accessible manner.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Mr. Shimada, do you have any additional questions?

Dr. Shimada: That's all right. Thank you very much.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
In that case, do you have any questions about the policy objectives of other members?
Mr. Iwasaki, please.

Mr. IWASAKI ( , thank you very much for your kind explanation.
First of all, I have no particular objection to the policy objectives.
I would like to share my impressions.
First of all, I think that the issues have been understood through the verification test, etc., and the vision and results to be aimed for have been clarified. If unifying and standardizing the website is a burden on costs and resources, I think it needs to be reviewed as a review of administrative projects, but in this case, in conclusion, the point that it was clearly shown that the consideration of building a single website was not necessarily a good goal was meaningful as a verification of the hypotheses. In this regard, I would like to evaluate that the results of Agile have been achieved without being bound by the infallibility of the administration.
The important points are how to build a website that is easy for users and citizens to use, how to improve the quality of usability and accessibility, and how to consider ease of use, ease of understanding, and ease of viewing by attribute and generation.
In addition, I think that the question of how websites should be designed for the digitally disadvantaged, including the elderly and people with disabilities, is an extremely important aspect of services that aim to create a society in which no one is left behind.
In the future, we will continue to conduct such evaluations, and I think it is important for them to continuously evaluate how we can improve accessibility, usability, etc. When we see an issue, we will repeat the improvement each time. For that purpose, I would like you to collect data and run a data-driven PDCA cycle.
That's all. Thank you very much.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
As you have just mentioned some supplementary matters, I am not sure if Director Miyanishi has anything to add. Is that OK?

Director, Miyanishi: .
The points you pointed out will be central to the direction we are currently pursuing. We have a dedicated team in Digital Agency, and we will work hard to implement the data-driven PDCA cycle you mentioned, including how to realize it, while fully collaborating with each ministry and agency.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Now, I would like to move on to the next point. As member Shimada pointed out earlier, I have divided the points, but as they are closely related to each other, I do not mind overlapping a little, so I would like you to speak freely.
The second point is the setting of goals. I would like to hear the opinions of each member. Thank you very much.
Mr. Shimada, please.

Dr. Shimada: .
I am glad that you told Chairman Sato that it is okay to overlap a little bit. Thank you very much. I am sorry if it overlaps.
Looking at the content you just showed me, I believe that this goal setting will involve the various ministries and agencies, and that it will be achieved through collaboration. By doing so, we will reduce overlapping areas, and from the perspective of those who see it, it is not that the same things are listed, but rather that there is not necessarily a unified list. However, the fact that Mr. Digital Agency is involved in this, I believe that there will be very good things, such as gaining an overall view and making the roles of the various ministries and agencies more visible.
Therefore, when it comes to reducing duplication and costs while improving convenience, I mentioned the term community earlier, and I thought that you might call it a place where you work together with people from ministries and agencies. First of all, I would like to know if that understanding is correct, and if so, what you are trying to do while placing importance in building a community. This is my first question.
The second point is that I think usability and convenience are the most important. At the same time, I think the appearance and UI are also important. I think it is also important to have an appearance and structure that will make people interested and curious as soon as they see it. For example, I'm sorry if it's a bad word, it's too boring, or I'm not excited. There are more things like this, and I'd like to take a look at them. If you have any input on how you will use this community to address these issues, I would like to ask you to do something about it.
That's all. Thank you.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Mr. Miyanishi Director, do you have any comment on Mr. Shimada's comment?

Director, Miyanishi: Let me explain.
Regarding the community, as you pointed out, we are considering creating a community of people in charge of websites at each ministry and agency. I briefly touched on this in my explanation, but while each ministry and agency believes that it is necessary to create a good website, it does not necessarily mean that there are sufficient professional human resources. Given that there are a certain number of such human resources in Digital Agency, I believe that the community will be useful in that we can work on a mutually complementary basis.
In that context, you mentioned cost, but I believe that we can move forward in the same direction from the perspective of ease of use by reducing the time and cost burden on each individual by implementing in common what can be implemented in common, and by sharing well in this way from the perspective of convenience that there are highly convenient services and ways to use them.
In addition, as I have conducted various interviews, I have come to see that each ministry and agency has a different desire to make the information reach the necessary target by providing it in this way because the users of each ministry and agency are different. From this point of view, I believe that we can consider what direction should be taken, although of course it differs depending on the website of each ministry and agency.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Mr. Shimada, do you have any additional comments on the reply from Director Miyanishi? Is that all right?

Dr. Shimada: .
What I would like you to tell me a little more is, if there is anything I can ask you about the connection and how to proceed that you know at this point in time, for example, when you become a person in charge of each ministry and agency with specialized human resources from the Digital Agency supplemented as needed, whether you will do it by connecting with groupware, of course, by combining it with a hybrid reality, how often and how quickly you will do it. Thank you very much.
I'm sorry, it has been added.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , what can I do for you?

Director, Miyanishi: First of all, regarding the frequency of meetings, we would like to consider how often to set up physical or online meetings while listening to the opinions of each ministry and agency. First of all, we would like to create a setting where we can always communicate using tools. For example, if there are any good examples of meetings that do not need to be held, we would be able to convey them based on our experience as a Digital Agency. Also, from the Digital Agency side, we would like to operate the community in a way that we can always refer to the knowledge gained from the construction of the Digital Agency website and Children and Families Agency website.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Are there any opinions from other members?
May I speak to Dr. Mito?

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. .
I would like to ask a question related to the community. According to the review sheet, the number of participating ministries and agencies in the community is five in the output. Is it correct to understand that it is five ministries and agencies? I would like to know if this number includes Digital Agency itself, and if possible, which ministry or agency it is or if it is a target.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , can you answer the question from Professor Mito?

Director, Miyanishi: First of all, it shows the number of ministries and agencies participating in the community, which does not include Digital Agency, and it is set as a target for ministries and agencies other than Digital Agency to participate in the community. At present, we have not clearly decided which ministries and agencies will participate in the community, but we believe that the needs will increase to a certain extent when the websites of ministries and agencies are updated, so we would like to have them participate and create better websites in turn. As a result, in order to make the completed websites even better on an ongoing basis, we would like to gradually increase the number in the sense that they will use the community well.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. , I think the position of this community is very important. The most important thing is to show by example what kind of website Digital Agency himself will create. However, I think it is a very good initiative to select five out of many ministries and agencies and exchange opinions on sampling what issues other ministries and agencies have. So you don't have to give me an answer right away, but I hope you will work out policies on what criteria you will use to select, whether you will mainly select those that are progressing, and whether you will intentionally select those that are lagging behind.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Would you like anything else?
If I may add one point, the so-called national or public websites have requirements that are quite different from those of the private sector, and Director Miyanishi mentioned the archiving of old materials in the explanation of materials this time. In the case of such public websites, in a sense, the information published on the website is considerably equivalent to the so-called official documents, so I think there are requirements that are quite different from those of the private sector when it comes to archiving such things. Mr. Shimada, a member of the group, mentioned the word Waku earlier, but in the case of the national government, considering that it is to be preserved to a certain extent, there are some parts that need to include fairly static content, and there are various information from each government agency and users, so we need to balance these aspects and ultimately archive them, but I think it would be good if we can proceed with things that are attractive to users and can be archived properly.
Then, although there may be other issues, I would like to move on to the next issue. The third issue is approaches (policy measures). I would like to hear the views of the members on this. Thank you.
I would like to add a little bit more. At the beginning, the so-called unified website was to be created by the government. Currently, we are rather supporting the websites of each ministry and agency. Considering that the national website is not necessarily advanced in terms of accessibility, I think we will be providing fairly common support for such things. I think we will be making a lot of efforts for each ministry and agency in the future. I would like to hear your opinion on what approach this effort should take. Thank you.
Mr. Shimada, please.

Dr. Shimada: .
Although I am not a specialist in this area, I would like you to tell me more about the design system that was applied in verification test. You have shown me the difference in appearance, but what kind of design system was applied to make the best point, and I understand that usability was also evolved in verification test.
I would like to ask you about the effects that have come to light as a result of being in verification test, and if you have any other ideas that you would like us to know. Thank you.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .

Director, Miyanishi: I will answer your question.
In terms of accessibility, for example, the type of font to be used on the website, the size of characters to be selected, the space between characters, or the space between one part and another, and the comparison of color contrast, there are people who have various color vision characteristics, so the design system defines how to make a color contrast that is easy to see for such people, and the design system is actually implemented on the Digital Agency website.
Among the comments from users, we have received various points such as that the functions of the Digital Agency website are still insufficient, but we have also received comments such as that the design system is easy to use and easy to see. We believe that we must continue to listen to various users' comments and make it better.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , if you have anything to add to your answer, please.
Dr. Shimada: That's fine.
Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , are you all right?
How about other members?
Then Mr. Mito, please go ahead.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. I'm not sure if I should be asking questions here. I've been looking at the Digital Agency website on my smartphone and entering various keywords, and I'm sorry, but it's still a bit difficult to understand.
Unfortunately, we have not yet reached the point where we can enter keywords into the search engines that we generally use. Keywords can be entered, but it may be possible to trace them through main headings, subheadings, and subheadings if you know them to some extent. Unfortunately, we have not been able to reach the point where headlines that seem to be related can be displayed in a single shot, which is the case with major search engines. I would like to know whether this is the current situation even after verification test, or whether the government considers this to be the ideal form.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada ?

Director, Miyanishi: Regarding the search function you pointed out, it was newly added to the Digital Agency website at the end of last year. For example, it was considered to add a function that allows you to search using private search engines, but it was realized in the form of what we could do to make it possible to search internally without revealing search keywords externally.
As you pointed out, compared to private search engines, we recognize that there are still some points to be improved, such as the lack of functions like fuzzy search and the fact that it may be better to appear by date when searching. Therefore, we would like to continue to work on these improvements.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , are these answers correct?

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. Yes. It was a AISAS that was mentioned in the preliminary study session. People's behavior as consumers, searching, taking action, and sharing, is exactly the same as the approach to government offices. Abstractly, keywords such as usability and people with disabilities appear, but I think where they appear is in the gentleness of searching and accessibility.
(Poor communication)

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada Mr. Mito, the sound has been cut off in the middle.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. I'm sorry, where was it?

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada It's the latter half.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. I see.
I thought that AISAS, which is a consumer behavior and consumption behavior of citizens that was mentioned in the study group, is exactly the same as information access to government offices, so I would like you to proceed with it. I think that you will understand the difference if you play around with it in detail, not in the abstract word of usability, so I would like to ask for your cooperation.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Is there anything else?
I would like to make a follow-up comment. Using search to reach a target page is a matter of course for both private and public organizations. The worst situation is that you cannot reach the information even though it is available. On the assumption that there are a certain number of users who use search, you can devise keywords and indexing. On the other hand, in the past few months, some public websites have changed their web structure, which has made it impossible to reach past information. Therefore, we need to consider countermeasures. As Digital Agency, if we can receive guidance from other ministries and agencies, it will contribute to the people's continuous access to necessary information. Therefore, we need to make improvements on a daily basis, including Professor Mito's opinions. We would like you to devise various measures as appropriate.
Since time is limited, I would like to hear your opinions on the framework of the deliberations, which is divided into two areas: stakeholders and systems. Therefore, I would like to hear the opinions of each member regarding the two areas of stakeholders and systems. Thank you very much.
Then, Mito members, please.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. Since this is related to what I just said, I would like to continue asking questions. I think it is very good that you can see the general public and related people in the government office separately when you look at the website of the Digital agency.
At the same time, there is a big difference in the level of understanding and prerequisite knowledge between the general public and the public office, so I think there should be a difference in the construction of each. How about that?

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada ?

Director, Miyanishi: First of all, the background of the division into sections for the general public and others at the entrance this time is that popular sites are arranged in an easy-to-understand manner depending on the background, from the perspective that popular sites differ depending on the viewer. As you pointed out, there are differences in terms of whether well-informed people can see the site or not, so we will continue to work on such matters while conducting various verifications within our website.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Is there anything else?
If I may add one more point, regarding this project, at first, the government decided to build a unified website, and then to provide a mechanism and support to improve the websites of the ministries and agencies. If so, the question is whether the current system is sufficient for Digital Agency to listen to questions and concerns from the ministries and agencies and make various suggestions.
As far as I know, it is said that there are only a few people, and I think that there are various ways of thinking about whether it is better to strengthen the system when it comes to the support of such ministries and agencies. I would like to point out this point, but I will not pretend to do so because I think that there is no way to answer even if I dump this on Director, Miyanishi. I would like to add one point in my capacity as chairman.
Is there anything else I can help you with? For example, in relation to stakeholders, there is currently a term "community," which I mentioned earlier, and people in charge of the websites of ministries and agencies have become communities. I think there are various ways of thinking about this.
Okay, Mr. Iwasaki, please go ahead.

Mr. IWASAKI ( . I'm Dr. Iwasaki.
First of all, regarding the system, I completely agree with what Chairman Sato said, and I believe that a certain amount of resources will be required for this matter. I also believe that the common government website forms the backbone of e-government and digital government, so I believe that each ministry and agency should have human resources to secure the necessary resources and ensure a community through collaboration between ministries and agencies, as you mentioned earlier about a community. Therefore, I believe that each agency will be required to have a sufficient system.
Also, I forgot to tell you earlier, but I'd like to make a few comments about the connectivity of the website. Is that okay?

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , please.
Mr. IWASAKI ( With regard to connectivity and continuity, I believe this is also related to the archiving of official documents, which the Chairman pointed out earlier. It is important to continuously disclose information in an easy-to-understand manner from the perspective of users who access the website, and to ensure that archived data can be used continuously. In this regard, I would like to commend the government CIO portal, which you mentioned earlier, as an improvement over the previous one, which had been quite costly.
One more thing. The E-Government and Local Government Research Institute of Waseda University analyzes and publishes the e-government ranking of the world's digitally advanced countries every year. There is a portal site for 10 benchmarks. This evaluates search and learning functions, interactivity, interface, accuracy of information data including technical convenience, and disclosure of documents for which information disclosure is indispensable even for past data. I think this is from the viewpoint of contributing to open data.
Thank you for your comments.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Is there anything else?

MORI Director: Thank you, Excuse me. Although we are in the middle of the discussion, I would like to ask the committee members to give their final opinions based on the Q & As and discussions. I would like to ask for your brief comments based on the five points I presented at the beginning, and for Chairman Sato to summarize them. Thank you.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada In that case, may I decide the order? I'm sorry for always putting Professor Iwasaki first, but I would like to ask Professor Iwasaki, then Professor Shimada, and then Professor Mito. Thank you.

Mr. IWASAKI ( ): Thank you very much. I would now like to make some brief comments.
As I said earlier, I said that this government-wide website will be the backbone of e-government. Mr. Digital Agency has already been working on various projects in verification test, and the best practices will be further spread across ministries and agencies. I would like you to continue on that point. I would also like to commend the fact that the website has been built with the premise that there are a wide variety of users, including the elderly and people with disabilities, who are making great efforts. I believe this is the first step toward the SDG concept of "a society where no one is left behind." I would like you to continue on this project. I would like you to report on the results at another opportunity.
That's all for my simple comments. Thank you very much.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada , could you please?

Dr. Shimada: , thank you very much. Thank you very much for your time today.
I would like to make three final comments.
As you have already been involved in verification test, I think it is important to make concrete use of the lessons learned from that experience. Which voices do you value, and what do you value?
And the second point is that I think there is meaning and significance in Mr. Digital Agency's involvement, so I will maximize its value. In other words, if everyone starts listening to everyone's voices, listening is important, but I think it will be difficult to express that value, so I would like Mr. Digital Agency to place great importance on what he values.
Last but not least, in today's discussion, I think there were many comments from the perspective of the users who use it. At the same time, it is also important to have the perspective of the people in charge of each ministry and agency, who are involved in it every day, update it, and continuously provide information, so I feel that it is important to make it easy for them to use and update it.
That's all for today. Thank you very much.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Then, finally, Mr. Mito, please.

Mr. Mito (Japan): Mr. , thank you very much for your time today. I would like to make three points.
I think that the specifics of this policy are important, and to that end, I think that Digital Agency himself should consider how to create a website and how to expand it horizontally. I will repeat what I said earlier, but I would like you to consider the usability of the search engines of the Digital TV Agency a little more. The heading method and the tree method are still easy to use for those who understand the system, but I feel that some ingenuity is needed in terms of accessibility for the general public.
Second, you mentioned that you would like to create a community and prepare for horizontal development there. I think that this community will also perform a very important function, so I would like to pay attention to where you will select the five ministries and agencies.
Finally, the Digi-Agency's website divides its users into three categories: the general public, government and business operators, and media organizations, and I think this is also a very good initiative. However, as I mentioned earlier, I thought that the content would be different from each other.
In addition, I am a little concerned about whether it would be possible to gain the understanding of other ministries and agencies by dividing them for each user, and I would like them to do so, but I would like to point out that there may be issues in that regard.
That's all.

Chairman Satoh: Mr. Shimada .
Well then, I must compile this based on the valuable opinions I received today from each member. I was listening to your opinions while I was chairing the meeting, so there may be some omissions. I hope to hear from you again at a later date, so I will briefly compile your opinions.
I would like to ask about the framework of each discussion, and I would also like to ask three members to give their opinions, and members Iwasaki and Shimada asked me to make good use of verification test. Members of Iwasaki and Mito, as well as member Shimada, said that various people use public websites and many of them have their own needs. The private sector has not necessarily taken sufficient measures in this regard. However, I think it is important for Digital Agency, as a national institution promoting digitalization, to take the lead in providing guidance on accessibility and to spread it across ministries and agencies.
In addition, Mr. Mito said that the search engine for Digital Agency is still not good enough, and I think that's true, but rather than saying it is not good enough, I think it is important to make various efforts to improve it in the future.
In terms of community, Professor Mito used the word "community," and Mr. Shimada pointed out that the perspective of users is also important. At the same time, he also pointed out that it is easy for the people in charge of the ministries and agencies to work. I would like to emphasize how we can create a community. In particular, this time, the policy has shifted to support the ministries and agencies, and I think how we can create a community will be the key to whether we can do a good job in the end.
In terms of the framework of the deliberations, there is considerable overlap, but in terms of policy objectives, I believe that you are probably looking at building a unified government website, a mechanism to improve the websites of the ministries and agencies, and providing support. In terms of the so-called mechanism, you are probably looking at providing a design system, and in terms of support, you are probably looking at providing individual consultations, so I would like you to move forward with that.
Also, as I said earlier, the private sector is not doing enough in terms of accessibility, so I don't know if it's better to say more boldly, but I think it's important for people to try more different ways and make improvements as they try different things, because I don't think there will be an immediate answer.
With regard to the setting of goals, I would like you to start with the question of what a community is, and finally proceed with the point that communities are important.
Also, I don't know if I should say verification test, but in Digital Agency, various support and efforts have been made for the construction of the so-called Children and Families Agency website, and I think we have already obtained various knowledge. Of course, each ministry and agency has its own situation, so not all of them can be developed horizontally. However, I think it is also important for Okinawa to be a hub for the development of what can be developed horizontally.
As for the approach, I think Professor Mito gave me a lot of bitter advice about the web search, but as I said earlier, I think it is important to improve this.
In addition, Professor Iwasaki pointed out something that I also said a little, but it is about the archive. If the website created by such a national institution is positioned as close to an official document, in a sense, it must be left permanently. Therefore, for that purpose, although it is related to the system, I think it is better to emphasize that we must build a system that can provide information, including past information, over an extremely long period of time.
I did not receive a very clear opinion from the stakeholders. However, in the individual opinions of each member earlier, Mr. Mito pointed out that we should consider the people in charge of each ministry and agency, and that users should be divided. Currently, it is being divided into the general public, the non-general public, and the media. That is one way of thinking, and I think it would be good to proceed with this first and correct the course if there are various problems.
I think I have summarized the opinions I received from each member today, but if there are any omissions, I would like you to point them out. Is that OK?
.
Now that I have compiled a rough summary, I hope that the opinions of today's members will be reflected in the future and that better measures will be implemented.
Is that okay? If you have anything to add, please let me know. Is that okay?
Now that I have concluded my role, I would like to return the moderator for the rest of the session to the secretariat. Thank you very much.

MORI Director: Thank you, .
I would like to express my sincere appreciation to the members of the Committee for their active discussions.
The opinions compiled today will be published on the Digital Agency website at a later date.
Finally, Mr. Director-General from Tomiyasu Digital Agency Strategic Planning Group will make a speech. Thank you very much.

Director-General Tomiyasu: Thank you very much to Chairman Sato and everyone today.
In the first place, as was the case in today's discussion, in the discussion in March or so, the major points of the policy, in other words, whether or not to build a unified website, or whether or not to focus on supporting how to make the websites of each ministry work well, while the original goal was to improve convenience or reduce burdens. It is basically difficult for us to change the policy by ourselves, but we received such instructions and opinions, and I believe we received a lot of support.
In that sense, we will use this as a starting point to further brush up on this. However, with regard to what you pointed out today, I believe there were many points that we were exactly lacking. We will consider how to involve each ministry in the community, how to make ourselves a model by utilizing verification test as a premise, and how to make the search engines themselves easy to use, which you pointed out. I also believe that we have to do a lot of things ourselves, such as the relationship with archives, which is a common issue for each ministry, and the relationship with the need to make it easy to use. However, based on the opinions you gave us today, I would like to make it a better project. Thank you in advance.
Thank you very much for your time today.

MORI Director: Thank you, .
Now, I would like to conclude the fiscal 2023 "Digital Agency Policy Evaluation and Administrative Project Review (public process)." Thank you very much for your time today.

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