4th Digital Society Initiative Conference

Last Updated:: Jun 10, 2022

Overview

Date and Time: Thursday, April 14, 2022, from 10:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m.
Location: Online
Agenda:
1. Opening
2. Agenda
  1. Toward the Establishment of the Next Priority Plan
  2. Public Comment
3. Adjournment

Meeting Video

The conference can be viewed on YouTube (Digital Agency official channel).

4th Digital Society Initiative Conference (YouTube)

Material

References

Reference Material 1: Digital Society Initiative Conference (Partial Revision) (PDF / 63 kb)

Minutes

Secretariat: This is the for joining us. This is the secretariat.

It's on time, so we will now begin the "Digital Society Concept Meeting."

I would like to briefly announce the three points at the outset.

First, today's meeting will be held online.

Second, in accordance with the meeting guidelines, today's meeting will be open to the public, and the general public, including the press, will be able to attend in real time and online.

Third, as of April 1, there was a change in the members, from Hirai members to Muraoka members. Later, I will receive a word of greeting from Muraoka members.

In addition, as of April 1, part of Reference Material 1 "Holding of the Digital Society Initiative Conference" was revised due to the change in the members.

From here, Mr. Murai, please start.

Chairman Murai: and colleagues. I am Chairman Murai. Nice to meet you.

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today.

Today, 10 members including myself are online. Members Mikitani and Muraoka left halfway.

I understand that Mr. Kawabe and Mr. Noda will be absent. Thank you in advance.

Minister Makishima and State Minister for Foreign Affairs Kobayashi are attending from Digital Agency.

So, first of all, I would like to receive greetings from Minister Makishima. Thank you in advance, Minister.

Ms. Makishima, Minister for Digital Transformation,: Thank you for Good morning.

I would like to thank all the busy intellectuals for attending the 4th Digital Society Concept Conference today.

At the Digital Society Concept Meeting, which has been held three times so far, we have had discussions from a broad perspective on the realization of the ideal digital society. At the end of last year, we were able to set out a vision for the digital society we aim for, which is a society in which people can choose the services that meet their individual needs and realize diverse happiness through the use of digital technology. We were able to set out a structural reforms and Priority Plan that will serve as a compass for working on measures to achieve this. Thank you very much.

Thanks to this Priority Plan, I myself, State Minister Fumiaki Kobayashi, who is attending today, Parliamentary Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs Taro Yamada, members of various organizations and companies, and foreign dignitaries were able to exchange views based on this Priority Plan in order to actively promote this Priority Plan after the New Year. I believe this is indeed a compass.

In order to realize the ideal digital society discussed at this conference, we will work in full cooperation with related ministries and agencies on digital society where no one left behind, total design, My Number System utilization, semi-public sector digitalization such as medical, educational, and children, renewal of national and local information systems, development and securing of digital human resources, DFFT, International Strategy, comprehensive data strategy, etc. We are also continuing discussions at the Digital Provisional Administrative Research Council and the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation Realization Conference, and are promoting a total inspection of laws and regulations and the development of digital infrastructure in light of the digital principles.

On the other hand, it goes without saying that the circumstances surrounding the digital society, such as the digital technology-related situation, are changing more rapidly than expected. In order to promptly incorporate the necessary measures in this situation, I believe it is necessary to update Priority Plan in the summer, when many government plans are compiled every year. At the end of the year, you just announced Priority Plan as a new priority, but in light of recent circumstances, I would like to hear your opinions again. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: .

Now, I would like to begin the proceedings. As we have been talking about, it is about the formulation of the next Priority Plan. The previous Priority Plan discussed the vision of the society we aim to achieve through digital technologies at this concept meeting, and we were able to advance various measures based on that.

In the same way, at this meeting, while maintaining the main points, we will ask you to confirm the records of our activities so far, and based on that, we will ask you to consider the formulation of the next Priority Plan.

Then, please explain the materials from the office.

Secretariat: This is the I will explain based on document 1. Since you have already confirmed it, I will explain briefly.

First of all, regarding the positioning of the next Priority Plan Plan, we would like to formulate it as a plan based on the laws of Basic Act on the Formation of a Digital Society and others.

In addition, regarding "Toward the Formulation of the Next Priority Plan," as you and Professor Murai have just mentioned, last year, while creating subgroups and others, you presented the ideal digital society and formulated the Priority Plan. I would like you to discuss this based on last year's broad framework so that you can respond to changes in the situation and challenges thereafter.

In addition, regarding the timing of the formulation, last year, the Priority Plan Plan was formulated within the year based on the Basic Act on the Formation of a Digital Society Plan. It will be formulated in the middle of the year, six months after the formulation. I would like to thank you for your support.

On page 2, as I stated earlier, we will address the issues in response to changes in the situation of the issues going forward, and we have highlighted in yellow which areas need to be addressed.

In three pages or less, I will introduce the matters that need to be dealt with respectively. I will also explain briefly here.

The top item is accessibility. Originally, the current Priority Plan has set forth specific measures for environmental improvement, and the progress of these measures is described below.

The second and third points will be based on the review of regulations at the digital ad hoc consultations, as well as the progress of various discussions at the Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation Conference.

Next, on the next page, although I have dealt with International Strategy after the inauguration of Digital Agency, there are developments since then, so I will also mention them. Then, regarding the data strategy, I will describe the basic concept of the framework for ensuring trust.

Next is total design. We will draw up a total design through the national and local governments and the private sector. This is also being discussed by the My Number Working Group, and we will respond based on that.

Next, on page 5, the My Number Working Group is also discussing the promotion of the use of My Number and the expansion of information coordination, so we would like to respond to that as well. Also, in relation to the public front service, we will add functions to Visit Japan Web, so we would like to respond to that as well.

There have been two developments in semi-public sector, in education, and in data linkage.

On page 6, in relation to children, various projects are currently being developed, and I would like to include responses based on that. In addition, I would like to include necessary matters related to the regulatory reform Conference and the Cashless Bill submitted by Digital Agency.

Next, regarding the systems and technologies that support the digital society, we will discuss the full-scale transition of the Government Cloud from fiscal 2023 onward, and the digitalization of court-related procedures on the premise of the ongoing revision of civil lawsuits. In addition, regarding the standardization of local systems, we will address the basic policies for standardization. In addition, we have expanded from 17 to 20 services, and I would like to describe them based on that.

Next, in relation to infrastructure, we would like to address specific targets for the development of optical fiber, 5G, data centers, submarine cables, and other infrastructure.

In addition, in relation to digital human resources, the "Plan for the Development of Digital Human Resources for Women" will be compiled, and I would like to include responses to that.

Next, on the next page, I would like to respond to the points raised by the committee members. The first is about digital policies necessary for national security assuming emergencies. If you look at the red part, isn't it necessary to consider different responses from the past in the context of national security as national digital policies? There is also the Public-Private Partnership Principles in the third point of the digital principles. In relation to the private sector, isn't it necessary to sort out what the private sector will do and how far it will go, or whether the government can give instructions?

In the paragraph below, it may be necessary to include a description in relation to Web3.0. Lastly, it may be necessary to take measures based on other countries by referring to "consideration of basic indicators to measure the progress of digitalization."

In addition, regarding the utilization of My Number System, I believe we should firmly indicate our intention to thoroughly promote its utilization, or we should thoroughly utilize My Number System under the new Architecture in areas such as medical care, nursing care, and education.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: .

Now, based on what you have just explained, I would like to ask you to discuss the policies and content for the formulation of the next Priority Plan. You can have your own discussions as usual, but I would like to nominate the members who are planning to leave early first.

First, Mr. Muraoka, are you there?

MURAOKA: .

Chairman Murai: First of all, I would like you to say a few words in addition to your greetings. Thank you very much.

MURAOKA: Thank you,

From today, I will be participating in this meeting in place of Mr. Hirai, Chairman of the National Governors' Association. My name is Muraoka, Governor of Yamaguchi Prefecture. I would like to thank you all for your support.

I am serving as the head of the Digital Society Promotion Headquarters within the National Governors' Association. I would like to make a statement from the perspective of the governor of Yamaguchi Prefecture as well as the head of the headquarters, so I would like to ask for your cooperation.

In the next Priority Plan, I would like you to incorporate highly effective measures in order to realize bottom-up growth from the local area to the entire country through regional revitalization that takes advantage of the individuality of the area, which Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation is aiming for. Today, in preparation for that, I would like to make remarks on four points that are strongly requested by each governor across the country in particular, and I would like to ask for your cooperation.

The first point is related to the development of the infrastructure that supports the digitalization. First of all, in relation to optical fiber, as you explained earlier, it was previously planned to raise the household coverage rate to 99.9% by fiscal 2030, but we are very grateful that this has been brought forward by three years and will be achieved in fiscal 2027.

However, even in Yamaguchi Prefecture, development has progressed to approximately 99% as of the end of last fiscal year, but the remaining 1% are areas with extremely difficult conditions for development, such as remote islands and deep mountains far from the mainland, and there are still areas with the highest hurdles in terms of development. In order to promote development in these extremely difficult areas, more generous support than ever before is necessary, and in order to achieve the target ahead of schedule, I would like the expansion of support to be included in the plan.

In addition, optical fiber has been positioned as a universal service and is being promoted in the direction of being subject to the subsidy system, which is expected to greatly benefit local areas with many unprofitable areas, so I am very grateful. Financial support based on this system will also support the development of disadvantaged areas, so I would like this system to be realized as soon as possible, so I would like you to show this in the plan as well.

The report also mentions 5G, which aims to raise the population coverage rate to 95% by the end of fiscal 2023 and 97% by the end of fiscal 2025. However, progress is being made mainly in urban areas, while rural areas are lagging behind.

Last year, I had the opportunity to have a conversation with Taiwanese Minister of State for Information Technology Audrey Tan on the theme of creating digital innovation from rural areas. At that time, Minister Tan also told me that in Taiwan, rural areas are developing 5G. I believe that there are many issues that need to be solved with digital technology, especially in rural areas. In order to advance efforts toward that, and also to reduce the gap between rural and urban areas, and to further solidify the flow of people from cities to rural areas, which is just emerging now, I would like to see the plan include the promotion of development in rural areas to keep up with urban areas.

The second point is about securing and developing digital human resources. In local areas, there is a marked shortage of digital human resources in both the public and private sectors. In the administrative field, for example, the national government plans to promote the unification and standardization of local government information systems by fiscal 2025, but I have heard that small local governments in particular are in great trouble because they do not have internal human resources to take care of these things or external human resources such as private companies to consult. I believe that the shortage of such human resources is highly likely to become a major bottleneck for promoting digitalization in local areas, and I think it is a very important challenge.

In order to solve the shortage of local human resources, it is important to repatriate the human resources that are unevenly distributed in urban areas to local areas, but the current plan does not include measures from such a perspective. There are also many requests from each prefecture that the national government should create a system to repatriate human resources to local areas. I would like you to consider specific measures that can surely create such a flow and include them in the plan.

The third point is the enhancement of support systems to support local communities. In order to promote digital implementation to solve issues in local communities, it is necessary to have a support system that allows each digitalization to take effective measures based on its own circumstances.

Under such circumstances, with regard to regional promotion subsidies, support is limited to initiatives that utilize services already established in other regions. Each Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation said that in order to further enhance the effects of digital implementation in local areas, it is necessary not only to spread existing technologies but also to expand the range of support targets. For example, there are many opinions that support for surveys and initiatives such as verification test to create a mechanism for digital implementation that suits the area, as well as projects over multiple years rather than a single year, should be covered.

In light of the purpose of Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation, which is to revitalize local communities while making the most of their individuality, I would like to request the City to consider enhancing its support systems for local communities, including reviewing them, so that they are more flexible and easier for local communities to work with.
Finally, the fourth point is related to the improvement of procurement systems for the development of local IT companies. Local IT companies play important roles in the local digitalization, and in the future, I think it is necessary to develop them by securing opportunities to receive orders for information systems.

However, under the current procurement system, system development and other projects that exceed a certain amount are subject to government procurement, and are monopolized by highly competitive major vendors, and local companies are unable to receive orders.

At this meeting, Chairman Hirai has asked us to consider a system in which local IT companies can participate in the unification and standardization of local government information systems. In order to revitalize local communities through the growth of local companies, I would like you to consider a procurement system that will expand opportunities for local IT companies to receive orders, and to include in the plan measures to improve the system to realize it.

My four opinions are as follows. We, the National Governors' Association, would like to advance our efforts toward the realization of a digital society in Japan in an integrated manner with the development of the national government's measures based on the next plan. To that end, I would like to request the National Governors' Association to formulate the plan by fully taking into account the voices of local communities, including what I just mentioned.

That's all from me. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: .

Now, Mr. Mikitani, please start.

Mikitani: I would like to explain only on the first page. The world is changing fundamentally now. I thought that the Internet revolution would settle down after about 30 years, but more and more new things are happening. For example, quantum computing will be put into practical use to some extent by around 2030, and so-called encryption technology, including RSA, will no longer be effective. Therefore, it will be extremely important to develop security technology to deal with it. In addition, unprecedented definitions such as blockchain and NFT will be created more and more. In such a situation, I think that how much we can attract world-class human resources will become very important.

I am sure Mr. Joi Ito and others are well aware of what happened during the novel coronavirus pandemic, but Elon Musk has said that the Twitter office should be turned into a shelter for the so-called street people. The status of San Fransisco is rapidly declining to a level unthinkable three years ago, and it has become the most dangerous city in the U.S.

I think one of the reasons for this is that taxes are high. When I talk to Ambassador Emanuel of the United States, he says that everything is fine in Japan, but no one will come to a place where taxes are so high. In other words, in order to attract ultra-advanced digital human resources, we need to review personal income tax, inheritance tax, and departure tax, or no matter how much we try to surround them, all the best crypto-related people have gone to Singapore and the land will gradually sink. The biggest problem essentially is that taxes are too high. Even in the United States, states with too high taxes are falling rapidly. If we become work-from-home, the country will become irrelevant, so how to lower taxes is actually important in order to attract excellent human resources.

Mr. Muraoka mentioned various human resource issues earlier, but considering that the number of Japanese engineers is only about 20000 per year, I think it is important to consider how to use or bring in an overseas Human Resource. One is that it is necessary to drastically consider immigration laws.

The second point I would like to make clear is the "nationalization of blockchains." I believe that the people of Kasumigaseki and Nagata-cho in particular are concerned that Bitcoins and Ethereums are questionable, but they are becoming the core of a major economy. In particular, I think that NFTs are basically able to securitize all kinds of rights between the private sector and the private sector, so tax system's fundamental review of crypto-assets is necessary. Overseas, in Germany there is no tax on holding for more than one year, and in most countries capital gains tax is imposed, but in Japan it is recognized as income tax. There is also the problem that corporate tax must be reviewed every year.

NFTs have a vague image of digitalization baseball card, but that is not the case. digitalization all rights, blockchainize them, and make them tradable, so there will be a really big transformation. Against this backdrop, I believe that Japanese tax system is lagging behind in an unprecedented way in the world and is extremely dangerous.

When it comes to supporting startups, for example, there are problems such as the short period during which stock options can be used, the inability to create a SPAC, and the basic inability to list multiple shares. Considering that most IPOs in the United States are multiple shares, I think that if I were to start a business in Japan, I would not set up an office, but would set up a company overseas and go public overseas. Those who actually work can stay in Japan. That kind of time has come.

In the United States, 60-70% of business start-ups have already lost their offices. If we don't make Singapore an economically and tax-friendly place, and if we don't do it in a way that fits the next generation, no matter how much we play, no one will really want to do it dynamically. Even if you listen to what young people say, the reality is that most people who start a business in Japan go to Singapore because it's dangerous.

That's all. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: .

Then, as we will continue to exchange opinions, anyone will be fine. Anything you have said so far is also fine. Anyone is welcome.

Natsuno-san, please.

Member Natsuno: . Nice to meet you.

I think it is very important that Priority Plan comes out at this timing.

When we are working on the ground in regulatory reform, there are still some areas where regulatory reform has not made progress due to old customs and pressure from industry groups so far, etc. It is clear from the response to the novel coronavirus and other sources that the lack of progress in regulatory reform and the delay in digitalization are almost equal, and it is extremely important to what extent specific Priority Plan can be presented here. In that sense, I believe it will be important from here on to clearly write down what we can do and properly implement it.

The most important thing is to change the awareness of politicians and bureaucrats, as well as the awareness of the people. There will always be a discussion about whether there will be people who will feel sorry for them, so I think this trinity is very important. In that sense, it is very important to formulate a concrete plan and bring it to a form that will be accepted by everyone. When we actually try to do this, there will always be resistance, so I recognize that the significance of putting this together is much more significant than the similar things we have done so far. I would like to ask for your cooperation.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: .

Then Kuniryo-san, please go ahead.

Kokuryo member: This is Kokuryo. Good work, everyone.

There are various issues, but I would like to make just two points.

The first one is the "Public-Private Partnership Principles" on page 10 of Handout 1, which is the second part of your talk on emergencies. I highly appreciate the fact that you set out the principles at the digital ad hoc meeting. I continue to believe that it is extremely important for private sector services and the government to work together to create a friendly system that is perfectly customized for each user, which you mentioned earlier. At that time, I believe it is certainly important to consider in advance including emergencies and disaster prevention.

I believe that it is very important to publicly endorse and position private sector services. Digital Agency is placing great importance on in-house production, which I respect. However, I believe that we can provide comprehensive services in collaboration with the private sector in areas such as the user interface. In particular, I believe that it is very important to provide services necessary for the people smoothly using the private sector infrastructure even in times of emergencies and disasters. Therefore, I think it is important to flesh out this concept in a fairly specific manner. The ad hoc council has presented very good principles, and I think it would be good if Priority Plan could work on how to materialize them.

I have been conducting research on a wider range of topics, such as everyday life, emergencies, and disasters. Tools that are not used on a daily basis can hardly be used during disasters. Therefore, I think it would be good to think about not only emergencies and disasters, but also peacetime.

Moving on to the second point, with regard to human resources, both Ms. Muraoka and Mr. Mikitani spoke about human resources. In the fall, I was asked to take the lead in working on human resources, and in order to further advance this, I think it would be a very good measure to include female IT human resources in this Priority Plan. However, I remember that in the fall, there was a discussion that we should think about human resources more seriously and systematically, and that this was the most important challenge.

On top of that, how can we utilize overseas human resources? Of course, it is a national policy, so it is natural to do a good job of domestic human resource education. Also, as Mr. Muraoka mentioned earlier, the development of human resources in rural areas, and you mentioned earlier that you would like the central government to assign them to rural areas, but I think that in reality, the problem is that more and more people move from rural areas to Tokyo and metropolitan areas.

To this end, it is necessary to have a total human resources strategy that includes how to nurture local IT companies. Although it is almost a fate that the government's Priority Plan will continue to increase the number of items and will no longer be a priority, I think that human resources can be considered a priority in the Hariju points.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Koshizuka-san, please.

Member KOSHIZUKA: Thank you very much. Also, thank you for the summary of various additional points on the secretariat side.

I would like to give you my impressions of what I saw. Just looking at the areas that are expected to be added to Priority Plan in the future, there are many and varied areas. Amidst this, it is difficult to see the relationship and the overall picture in such a wide area. This is the fate of the Digital TV Agency, and I truly feel that this is what needs to be done across the board.

If we look at individual issues, I think each one is reasonable. So, when we are in a position to go across issues, I think one of the important points is the relationship and balance of policies as a way of proceeding. This time, to look over that, there is a table of contents for Priority Plan, which shows the whole picture. But, going back to Architecture, I think it is important to discuss balance and relationship based on that every time.

There are discussions on whether there is a tendency to focus too much on a specific layer, whether there is cross-linking, and whether it is public, semi-public, or private, but I think there will be further consideration on what is going on between these points.

At that time, if we proceed with various issues, there will be a lot of discussion on individual issues and what to do with cross-cutting, and there will be more discussion on the front-end, which is an easily visible service part, and the back-end will gradually become vulnerable. I think that Architecture is important for that as well.

With regard to individual issues, I would like to say two things. One is data. Since the establishment of the Digital TV Agency, people have been saying that education, child-rearing, disaster prevention, and even digital garden cities are data. There have been quite a few efforts to utilize various data within a specific domain. I think we are getting excited and have a good feeling about it. However, when it comes to horizontal issues, they tend to diverge in different directions.

I think the first point is that it is increasingly important to discuss how to link data across sectors and how to connect public, semi-public, and private sectors, including the issue of base registry.

The other point is that we are now talking about foreign human resources, and I myself am in a university, so I tend to train them. Recently, salaries in Japan have been lower than in other countries. When we recruit foreign human resources through IT, are salaries too low in Japan? Because salaries in China and the United States are much higher, really talented people go there, where salaries are higher. In the first place, can such good people come to Japan, where salaries are so low? I think this is becoming a reality. In that case, there may be no choice but to take the company itself outside. I don't have an answer right now, but I think we need to consider and discuss such things.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: .

Well, Ikeda-san, please go ahead.

Member IKEDA: Professor Wakamiya Thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to express my gratitude for the establishment of the Digital Garden City Initiative Promotion Grant, which I stated in my capacity as a local government at the plenary session. I would be very grateful if you could continue to support us.

The second point is that thanks to the efforts of the people of Digital Agency, we have been able to create an extremely dense Priority Plan, for which I would like to express my gratitude.

On the other hand, I have a strong feeling that it has not yet spread to local governments and companies of a certain size, so I would like to further raise awareness by, for example, sending a strong message from the minister to the head of the local government, and by obtaining the cooperation of relevant private-sector organizations.

The third point is about the utilization of My Number System and My Number Card. This city has been working to raise the grant rate, and as of April 1, the grant rate reached 78% in this city. As for what will happen from here, I think we are reaching the upper limit, but we will firmly respond.

Against this backdrop, this city is making efforts to use this My Number in various areas such as delivery at convenience stores, online application, evacuation shelter check-in, and attendance management of employees. However, an unexpectedly large number of citizens on the ground say that it is convenient to use it for identity verification in private services such as Mercari and PayPay.

Accordingly, we will also firmly promote the utilization of information in public administration, and I believe we should encourage private companies to make efforts and use information that is convenient for the people.

My fourth question is about support for human resource development. The question of what the national government will do on this matter is obviously an important one. From the local level, as I have been saying at this meeting for a long time, municipalities are very concerned about human resources amid the standardization of local government systems and other issues. At the opinion exchange meeting of heads of local governments in Miyazaki Prefecture and other occasions, as well as from town and village assemblies, voices have been raised about the shortage of human resources for DX promotion.

In that sense, we will of course work hard as we move forward with system standardization on a tight schedule, but I would like to ask for appropriate support and flexible decisions based on the situation while listening to the voices of local governments as needed.

Finally, from the perspective of the creation and growth of start-ups, I think that start-ups and Vision for a Digital Garden City Nation this time are very compatible. I have high expectations that new businesses based in rural areas will be created, and for example, this city also has experience in competing with start-ups. Amidst this, I feel that people in the private sector are seeking a place for social demonstration.

If that is the case, I believe it would be better if we could create a place that matches motivated local governments and startups, including in terms of conditions such as urban structure.

That is all from me.

Chairman Murai: .

Well, Wakamiya-san, please go ahead.

Member WAKAMIYA: . Pleased to meet you.

I think this is wonderful, and I think we have already done all kinds of things. But the most important thing is how to make efforts to make the people understand this. In other words, how to make the people understand that they are not sure, so they are anxious, so for the time being, they are opposed or passive. I think this is going to be very important in terms of implementation.

The second point I would like to make is that there are an extremely large number of countries that are making progress overseas that are supported by volunteers, although 100 million volunteers is too much. Therefore, although I am not advocating 100 million volunteers, I would like people to understand that we are all parties to the digital reforms in Digital Agency, and that we are all parties to them, and I would like them to support us with volunteers.

Also, there are various cashless services now, but the last thing is to reduce the burden on the end users, and the hardest part after the start of cashless services is the people at the cash register. When I say apologetically, "Excuse me, may I use the bar code?", they read it as if it is troublesome and do it unwillingly. Because I have to do it twice. Now, there is no smart cash register, so there is more work. So, the end users are reluctant and customers are reluctant, but when we do something like this, the first thing is to make something that the end users can feel the benefit.

Finally, as Mr. Ikeda has just mentioned, when asked about the benefits that digital reforms will bring to us, I think it would be better to have something that is easy to understand, although it would be strange to call it a featured product.

For example, an easy-to-understand idea like a digital Health Handbook, which is relevant to anyone, can be used to create an easy-to-understand feature product that is useful for everyone, not just a specific person, by dragging and dropping vaccination results and other information.

That's all. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: .

Then, Mr. Ota, please go ahead.

Thank you,

There are two points. First, Minister Makishima mentioned the word "compass" a while ago. In terms of a vision, I think you can see something very clear and wonderful. However, in your daily work, I still don't understand where you are now and where you are going.

So, I've been repeating it like a broken machine several times, but as for the satisfaction level mentioned earlier, we can survey the utilization rate and satisfaction level in a month, so I'd really like you to include your current location when you leave the Priority Plan.

I will repeat this, but Estonia's e-government is well known, and the satisfaction rate was 67% in 2012 and is now 85%. The Tokyo Metropolitan Government conducts its own fixed-point observation, but the satisfaction rate last year was 25%, and the benchmark overseas city was 63%, which is the level of Estonia exactly 10 years ago. If you don't know your current location, you will really be lost, so I would like you to see the utilization rate and satisfaction rate.

The good news, which I would like to repeat, is that it is an app published by the national government. Mynaportal's satisfaction rating is 1.5 out of 5, and I think this is a failure, but the Individual Number Card Point is 2.2, and this is also a failure, but the good news is that the vaccine COVID-19 vaccine certificate app published by the national government is 3.6. Although it is all iOS, it is not inferior to the private sector, and I would like everyone participating today to do it, it can be done within 60 seconds. Therefore, bearing in mind that it can be done to this extent, I would like you to draw up goals for satisfaction and usage rate around 2025.

At that time, I believe that the vaccine COVID-19 vaccine certificate app was probably created, but there are some fundamental things that cannot be done. I believe that there are limits to what can be done based on a Juki Net. Total design, which is a major surgical operation in a sense, will make a difference, and service design, which we have been doing since last year, which can be done by properly implementing UI and UX, will be different. Therefore, I believe that there is a world of utilization rates and satisfaction that can be improved by extending the current approach, and there are also risks involved in what can be done by performing proper surgical operation. If you set realistic goals and create a compass of how much utilization rates and satisfaction levels will be in two to three years, we will be able to see various things from there. That is my first point.

Another point is that for a strategy, I think it is very important to discuss the allocation of resources, or whether resources are sufficient.

For example, in Tokyo, the Digital Service Bureau was established in April last year, and the number of staff was 180 last year. The number of staff for this fiscal year is 270, which is 1.5 times more. We cannot do it without resources. For example, the United Kingdom has announced a data strategy, and the number of data-related staff alone is about 1,000. There are many figures here, but the current number of 600 is definitely not enough, so I would like to know what kind of staff will be needed.

Because of various political circumstances, if we can only do 600 people, then we need to think about where we can narrow it down to with those 600 people. If we just spread out the furoshiki, we won't be able to realize it. I don't think the relationship between what we want to do and resources will match no matter how you look at it. I don't think anyone says that much, but this doesn't match.

Therefore, we will properly raise human resources at the stage of the Priority Plan. I believe that raising resources will be coupled with whether we are achieving results and making progress from where we are. I believe this is a very basic matter, and I would like you to include the first and second points.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Then, Joichi, please.

Rep. Itoh: Since everything I was concerned about was mentioned earlier, and Mr. Koshizuka and others were talking about Architecture, I would like to add a few more opinions. In Architecture, new technologies will change the Architecture in various layers. Currently, various technologies such as security, privacy, crypto, Web3.0, and accessibility have been developed. What worries me a little is that those who are in charge of production and design, if they do not have a deep technical understanding of new materials, they will try to build the same building as before and only change the materials later. There is a tendency to start with a one story building and add new materials later, even though there is concrete, steel, and glass. There are many wonderful architects and engineers in Digital Agency. If you properly understand the imagination of various uses of new technical materials in various areas, such as the production team and the design team, I think you will be able to talk about more new issues in the first place. This is the same as the story of My Number. If you look at the new Web3.0 technologies, security, and privacy and talk about them in the upper layer, I think you will be able to do various interesting innovations.

Of course, it is very important to learn from people who have done things before, but I also want to do new things.

Also, human resources are very connected, and recently I've been feeling the same pains as the salary part that you all mentioned. However, I can do a lot of things, and I think cybersecurity also goes to Priority Plan a little, but there are still no proper cybersecurity courses at Japanese universities. In the undergraduate course, you can enter from network computing or cryptography, but those who like to study independently will be in charge of cybersecurity, and I think there will be a lot from Professor Murai's school. In general, there are no proper courses for young people who want to study cybersecurity at universities, so I think they should definitely do more. It takes a lot of time for universities to incorporate Web3.0, which is currently popular, so I think we need to think about a free study path that can incorporate more of these new technologies.

This has also been presented at this meeting before, but I think open source is very important. This can be a course where you can learn various things even if it is not at university, so it has been discussed in various ways in the United States. For example, if you make about 20% of procurement open source, various skills and budgets will be available in the open source community. Even now, engineers at the digital agency participate in open source in their private time and create very nice packages, so they will be recognized. Tools and open source can be a recruitment and a place to learn. Of course, open source is important economically and for the Architecture, but I think that if there is a little more support for open source in human resource development, it will work well.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Now that we have heard the members' opinions in general, I will ask you to speak in the second round later. In the meantime, I would like to listen to the discussion so far and ask the political affairs officers.

Kobayashi-san, what do you think? A lot of things are going on at the moment, and expectations are high. A number of members have asked whether the personnel and management will be all right with the new appointment starting in April. Anyway, Kobayashi-san, please speak freely.

State Minister for Digital Transformation Kobayashi-Katsuna: Based on what you just pointed out, as member Natsuno also pointed out, I think it is very significant that Digital Agency has a digital ad hoc committee with Minister Makishima. Regarding what you pointed out earlier about how to create an atmosphere or culture that allows failure, I think there are many things that are actually established by rules. As Member Ota mentioned earlier, the grant application requirements do not recognize agile, and the personnel evaluation does not recognize it under the public officer system. We also talked about resources earlier. From the viewpoint of Digital Agency in other countries that can be used as a benchmark, it is natural that there should be a scale of several thousand people, but I think that the rules are not yet in place for building a flexible public officer system and organizational structure that can secure the necessary resources in about a year. Thank you,

I believe that what you are pointing out is almost the same as what I have been explaining in various places, and I believe that the resource issue is a major one. I believe that it is important for us to secure resources while at the same time prioritizing what we can do with the current resources, and that is why we are referring to Priority Plan.

The other point is that Digital Agency needs to pin down the initiatives of other ministries and agencies and set a schedule. In that sense, I would like to wisely utilize the resources of other ministries and agencies and the entire government, as well as the resources of the private sector, which have been highly evaluated in Priority Plan. I believe the points you all made today are true. I will manage the office by fully reflecting them. Public-Private Partnership

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Minister Makishima, are there any points that you would like to mention in the opinions of the various members you have just heard?

Ms. Makishima, Minister for Digital Transformation,: Thank you for Thank you,

From April 1, there will be 700 people from Public-Private Partnership and Digital Agency, and 12 members of the inaugural class, each with a diverse background, but as Professor Wakamiya mentioned earlier, I am truly grateful that experts communicate in this way so that each and every citizen can think that they are parties to the digital society. Nairi

In terms of human resource development, there is a need to cooperate not only with Digital Agency but also with people from local governments who have come to Digital Agency. In addition, as suggested by the cybersecurity Strategic Headquarters, we would like to support universities, technical colleges, and high schools, and others with unique talents who are not included in the education process but who are active or have the potential to be active in the field of cybersecurity, although they are white.

And as I listened to the teachers, I felt that it was important to think about what to express in the next Priority Plan and how to express it toward the keyword "compass." We have talked about the Tokyo Metropolitan Government model before, and we have been trying to install the idea of Agile not only in the construction of systems and services but also in the culture of Kasumigaseki, so that we can find out where we are now. We also have to express it.

Thank you,

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Since I have a little more time, I would like to ask for additional opinions from the committee members. While you are thinking, I will.

Mr. Koshizuka said that since the overall scope is large, we need to think carefully about how to organize it, or that resources are limited and what we can do will be limited, so we need to focus on somewhere. I think that is actually true.

However, on the other hand, when it comes to what we need to do to create a digital society now that a digital agency has been established in this country, it is very important to think about the ideal image without flinching for the time being. If we narrow it down to this one from among them now, there is a little concern that no one will ever think about the whole picture or think about Architecture again. In any case, since it will be from September, I wonder if the excuse of a startup still works.

Then, when a new organization is established, as in the interim period, I think that various things will be learned from it and gradually made into a full-scale system. In that sense, I thought that it would be good for Priority Plan to take action this time by focusing on this much because this kind of thing happened when I did it a little.

As for the other point, Mr. Muraoka, a local government official, talked about the infrastructure. Although the infrastructure is very good, it was only 20 years ago that the Japanese government took measures to improve the infrastructure of the world as a whole. In that sense, we need to think about what and how to prepare for the new era in which everyone and every cybersecurity will be involved. In addition, the Digital TV Agency will be responsible for the networks and systems. I think the Digital TV Agency must be able to create a model of how to create the best and safest system for each region, as you pointed out earlier.

In that sense, if an organization is responsible for the cybersecurity of important systems or responsible for running government networks, it sets an example that the quality is the best. From this point on, I think that we can take leadership in infrastructure and safety, and I think that is the responsibility.

Natsuno-san who raised her hand, please.

Member Natsuno:

That is not because Mr. Makishima and Mr. Kobayashi are holding double posts. There are bureaucrats who are working in their respective areas. In that case, Digital Agency does not have to work hard alone. At least with regard to digitalization for administrative procedures, Digital Agency will talk about the general framework and ask them to do the rest, such as creating systems. regulatory reform will be more aggressive in reforming the existing system.

However, since the goal is the same, when I hear it from various aspects, I feel that in the past year or so, the competent authorities have been forced into a position where they have no choice but to take action.

In that sense, among the items in Priority Plan, there are some items that can only be done by Digital Agency. However, there are also many items that could be led by someone other than Digital Agency. Regarding these items, I believe it is necessary to use them in a better or more strategic manner. For example, I think it is necessary to expand the scope of those who dare to take the lead, attend meetings, and participate in committees. This is partly due to the fact that there happens to be a proper Deputy Director-General as a counterpart. This is a very personal matter.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Then, Ota-san, please go ahead.

Thank you,

In addition, I would like to make an additional proposal on how to proceed. In terms of agile in a broad sense, as Mr. Minister Makishima mentioned, where should we focus on? During the discussion with the Taiwanese side this week, I happened to mention that we should start with about 60 points, and if it does not go well, we should change the position, which is called the pivot. In other words, if we do not work in a way that accepts failure, we will not be able to progress.

This is always going to work, so there is no talk of narrowing it down to this much, but swinging the bat and swinging it seven times in the air. If you try to get 120 points, you can't swing the bat, so if you don't swing the bat, you can't hit, so you allow failure. I will tell you two specific things. For example, one is about Digita. Regarding the social implementation of Digita's Type 1 and Type 2, it is not allowed to change at all from what has been applied. As governor Yuzaki said, it is natural that something like this has been tried and found not to work, so I would like it to be operated so that it can be changed in the middle. Also, it is important to properly summarize the failures of services created by semi-public organizations in Digital Agency, and jGrants, which was created by METI, now has a satisfaction level of 70% when measured in Tokyo. But the first one made a big failure, and two years ago, developers were gathered in an underground auditorium to review the failure.

This is something that Kasumigaseki is not very good at, so I think the opportunity will open up when the top management tells us to pivot if we fail, to proceed in a way that allows that to happen, or to take a proper overview and learn from that, and that takes root.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

I also think that it is a cultural thing, such as not allowing failure, or that failure is impossible for officials. That's right, I think there was a saying that they would not fail because they only started and did not evaluate. Also, there were quite a lot of university research funds like that, but that has changed. Even the JST program, which I had been doing for 10 years, has gradually come to the idea of how to allow changes in the middle of the process. If this was bound by rules, it was not that, but it was something like a bureaucratic culture, so I think it can be changed properly.

So, of course, there are expectations for that, and in particular, in the digital field, I think there will be many people who will say, "If we do this today with Web3.0 in this way, we can do this kind of thing," and say, "If we try it, it will be different." If we properly include such methods, I think what you just said will be important.

Mr. Kobayashi, please come in.

In fact, it is also important to change these structural problems, and I believe that the current system under Minister Makishima is capable of doing so in an integrated manner.

In that sense, I believe that what you have pointed out is not so much that we should do something about the system as that we should do something about the structural problems, and I would like to work on those points.

At the same time, considering that agile allows failure and passes it on to the next, I think it is very important that it is clearly visible. It is also important that it is visible in terms of numbers, but in terms of organizational management, it is important to see it properly and be able to give feedback appropriately.

In that regard, we are now taking on the challenge of organizational management that has not existed in Kasumigaseki to date, while holding all-hands meetings in Digital Agency and conducting one on-one meetings on a regular basis. Even though we have just launched, I would like to create an organization that can embody the parts that have been completely lacking in Kasumigaseki to date. I am very grateful for your suggestions on how to manage it and how to proceed. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

I think it is important that the Digi-Agency creates a good example and a new style, and the way the public and private sectors cooperate will have a positive impact on other government offices, not only in terms of the system, such as the way the public officer should be, the way government offices should be, and the lifestyle in public officer.

When I was analyzing the situation in Ukraine this time and had various cyber discussions, there was a discussion about why Japan could not become Six Eyes compared to the Five Eyes. It was interesting, but when I asked how the situation of what happened this time was shared among the Five Eyes, they said it was Slack. They were sharing all the information in real time on Slack, and they told Japan about it by e-mail. Is the Digi-Agency now able to use Slack? We are trying to spread it to each government office, so in any case, I thought it would be good if they would be the leader in that sense.

One more thing, what Mr. Wakamiya pointed out has not been discussed much, so I would like to point out a little. Unless everyone has the awareness that each and every citizen is a party to digital transformation, the concept that no one will be left behind will not be possible. Detailed and flexible responses in that area are necessary in each department, and I think that the active participation of local governments, especially local governments, is necessary to keep an eye on everyone. Mr. Ikeda, what do you think about what Mr. Wakamiya pointed out?

Member IKEDA: Professor Wakamiya and I have been discussing various issues, but as I said earlier, in the case of local governments, I think it is very important how citizens can fully feel the benefits of digitalization.

In particular, I always think that there are people who are not interested in digitalization at all. Unfortunately, I think there are about 20% of people everywhere. On the one hand, there are of course young people who are doing such things on their own, but there are also elderly people. I think it would be good if such people would do it on their own, but I always think that the most important target is those who want to do it but do not know what to do or how to do it. I always talk with the staff about how to first save those who are motivated but do not know how to do it.

In this city, we are using the national system to steadily teach elderly people how to use mobile phones in cooperation with mobile phone companies. First of all, we would like to spread Furoshiki to all citizens, but we are working to spread it to the entire city by saving people who are motivated but can't get started. I think this is an important role of local governments.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Wakamiya-san, please.

Member WAKAMIYA: That's exactly what you just said. For example, I don't know what to do. As is the case with volunteer work, even if I want to do volunteer work, I don't know who to tell.

For example, there is such a section in the city hall, and when I talk to them, they ask me to do volunteer work, but I don't know who I can tell, and I don't want to end up saying that I have been sent so many phone calls to the city hall, so I would appreciate it if the local government would take care of the details, but I also think it is really important for everyone to participate.

That's all.

Chairman Murai: First of all, I think that it is always necessary to have a system in which two way reactions are properly received, even in the service of the public or the government, because there is a lot of information to convey all the findings and deal with them.

I am also talking about the services of the Digi Agency, but when I look at the good administrative services in the world, from the beginning, I keep saying that if you have an opinion about this service, please say it here. If you think it is inconvenient, you have no choice but to say it. If you collect it, you will gain a lot of knowledge, and there are local governments doing this in Japan as well. However, it is really often done around the world. You can collect what you have noticed from people, and I would not say that everything is valuable information, but if you are involved in both ways, you will always be able to gain a sense of participation, so I thought this was also very important.

Now, do you have any other opinions? You don't have to get involved in this. Is there anything left to say? Is that all right?

Then, I would like to ask you about what to do after this, so I would like you to hand it over to the secretariat once and come back again.

Go ahead.

Secretariat: This is the Secretariat.

Next, Mr. Murai, the chairperson of the meeting, will preside over Item 2.

Chairman Murai: That was my intention. Thank you.

Secretariat: This is the Excuse me. I would like to explain the topic of the next document 2.

As I did in the previous meeting in Priority Plan, I would like to solicit opinions from the public using the Idea Box. Specifically, I would like to solicit opinions from the day after this meeting, tomorrow, until May 5.

If you look at page 2, as the theme, what do you expect for the realization of "digital society where no one left behind" here? Also, as discussed earlier, what do you think is necessary for startups to be created and grow? In addition, the next page, "Toward the Realization of a Prosperous Digital Society," will cover a wide range of topics, and I would like to hear your opinions.

That's all for the explanation of the materials. Thank you very much.

Chairman Murai: .

Now that I am back, I would like to ask the committee members if there is anything else they would like to say. Are you all right?

Please come in, Natsuno-san.

Member Natsuno: I have a question. How do you respond to those who put their ideas in the idea box? Don't you respond to them individually?

Secretariat: This is the When we established Priority Plan last December, we used the Digital Agency Idea Box to collect opinions from the public. We put them together and presented them at the concept meeting, and reflected the contents in Priority Plan. This was the previous move. This time, in the same way, when we hold the next meeting again, we plan to present the results of this public comment collection to everyone, and to incorporate necessary opinions when the secretariat prepares a draft.

Member Natsuno: Am I correct in understanding that I did not reply to the person who sent it?

Secretariat: This is the It is not done individually.

Member Natsuno: How many of these are there? I'd like it rough.

Secretariat: This is the Last time, we received about 500 cases at the level of 100 cases.

Member Natsuno: If that is the case, I would like you to say something in return in addition to saying thank you for your valuable suggestions.

If I return something like this in the name of the Minister Makishima, I don't expect to receive a reply, so I would be happy if I receive a reply. You mentioned earlier that you would like to gain the understanding of the people, but I think it really doesn't take much time to give back to those who take action as if they are the ones who are responsible. If you give them back, I think the number of friends will surely increase, so please give them a reply. I think I can create a sentence that doesn't look like a prepared template, so please do so.

Secretariat: This is the Certainly, thank you.

Secretariat: This is the Secretariat. Both last time and this time, we only received the documents in an anonymous form, so it was difficult to return them. However, based on the guidance of the current committee members, we will earnestly consider the possibility of returning the documents to those who wish to receive them, or in any case, we will consider and proceed with the consideration based on the purpose so that people will understand that the documents were reflected in this way as a whole. Thank you very much.

Member Natsuno: Nice to meet you.

Chairman Murai: Thank you,

Mr. Wakamiya, please come in.

Member WAKAMIYA: Regarding the questionnaire, I think it is very important.

But when you do a survey, you only get answers from people with a certain level of skills. When I did a web survey in Estonia as well, I was worried about that, so I asked young people to do it on behalf of their fathers, mothers, grandfathers, and grandmothers if they couldn't write, and I was able to get data from a wide range of people.

Even people who use smartphones can communicate with their families on LINE, but it is quite difficult for them to answer such a questionnaire. We want to hear the opinions of people who think they have a high threshold, so I don't know if this is the case this time, but I hope that when you conduct such a questionnaire in the future, you will be creative about this.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much. That's a wonderful opinion.

Is there anything else?

If you don't mind, regarding Priority Plan, you looked at the table of contents at the beginning of what was decided last time. The direction of table of contents 2 was decided at this meeting, Priority Plan was decided, and as Minister Makishima said at the beginning, parts 1 to 6 were worked out in the working group and others, and measures were taken based on that, and as a result, there were various movements. These are the yellow parts.

In other words, only half a year has passed since then. This time, Priority Plan will be decided, and I have heard that the decision will be made because the situation has changed in various ways. Therefore, it is not that we will split into working groups to thoroughly reconsider all of this. I have heard that we will have discussions on amendments and additions to the previous one, and we have already started the work for that.

Next, we will have another meeting around the middle of May. If we do not make a Priority Plan immediately after that, we will not be able to meet the next budget. So what I am saying is that it will take only about a month, and working-level officials need to make preparations based on your opinions today.

I feel very sorry for the secretariat, but personally, I would like to create an opportunity to hear your opinions again, and although I do not know how far I can reflect them, I would like to create a place where we can discuss freely so that it will not be a burden on the secretariat, which is prepared as much as possible. I do not know if the timing will be such that all of them can be reflected, but if something very important is pointed out, I would be grateful if you could be prepared to consider it in the sense that it may be included. I am personally planning such a plan, so I would like to ask you again. Maybe I will personally ask you.

Then, if there are no other opinions, I would like the Minister to summarize and talk at the end.

Ms. Makishima, Minister for Digital Transformation,: Thank you for .

I believe that we have received many valuable opinions today.

As Dr. Murai just mentioned, we need to prepare the Priority Plan again in a short period of time in the future. Not only at this meeting, where we will receive confirmation in writing and ideas, but also during the period before and after the meeting, we have been working with you, and I will be asking you again for a while. I hope that you will be able to clearly convey your message to Digital Agency and to the citizens of the digital society.

At the end of last year in Priority Plan, I was told that not many people would read the dozens of pages on Priority Plan, so I created a summary version, included pictures, and made other efforts to make it feel closer to everyone.

The other day, people with visual impairments said that this summary version was very easy to read and understand, and I think we need to give feedback to the teachers. We have also made an English version and are continuing to communicate globally, but I would like to ask for your continued guidance toward the summer.

Chairman Murai: Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to stay with me until the end. I look forward to working with you in the future.

I think I will get in touch with you again, but I would like to have another opportunity to talk with you. Thank you in advance.

Thank you very much.